• Shawn
    10.4k
    I have this nagging suspicion that people have collectively lost their mind in pursuit of happiness.

    Given my readings of Schopenhauer, his philosophy seems to point towards treating happiness as an extrinsic, fleeting, and lofty emotion. I dare say that happiness and the pursuit of it is inherently dangerous due to its nature as described by Schopenhauer.

    People in the West, seemingly have adopted the idea that happiness is a good in of itself. Whereas, other cultures don't necessarily devote so much attention towards its entertainment or promotion of it.

    Furthermore, it seems that our memory is so selective as to remiss about one's childhood or the moments when one was satisfied with life. But, this is reckless and absurd to only try and think about the positives in life. In Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, it would be tantamount to the cognitive distortion of asserting an over-generalization along with minimizing the positive and magnifying the negative, I think.


    One might even say that depression sometimes is rational or sets the stage for realistic thought(?) But, let's not kid ourselves, depression simply sucks. We don't wish it upon others, even though schadenfreude is a real thing. I have set myself the goal of treating happiness as a byproduct of getting along with life. Yet, it is my life that is characterized as sad and full of depression. Therefore, how do I move on from feeling tired of being negative and sad?

    Ultimately, if things do exist in a dichotomy of control, one feels out of control, lost, and anxious about the fact that they are not happy. Isn't this trope overly simplistic and devoid of any sense of understanding? Is it not a short-circuit towards the denial of life when not feeling happy, or full of boredom?

    So, what's the issue with treating depression as a bad thing? One can read Dostoevsky, or Emil Cioran, and feel a sense of happiness that depression is something other people experience. One feels, perhaps, not happy, but, content that it is a genuine emotion that stems from an authentic care for others or oneself. I have always thought that people with depression experience an overabundance of empathy for their future selves, or in the bast case scenario for other inhabitants of the world.

    Hence, if a person recognizes that inherent danger of attaining happiness, then how do they avoid becoming sad, depressed, or sulk over its lack-of in their lives instead of accepting it and moving on? Quintessentially, how does one move on from depression, if it bears so much truth about the world around us, as full of negativity?
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    I have this nagging suspicion that people have collectively lost their mind in pursuit of happiness.

    Given my readings of Schopenhauer, his philosophy seems to point towards treating happiness as an extrinsic, fleeting, and lofty emotion. I dare say that happiness and the pursuit of it is inherently dangerous due to its nature as described by Schopenhauer.

    People in the West, seemingly have adopted the idea that happiness is a good in of itself. Whereas, other cultures don't necessarily devote so much attention towards its entertainment or promotion of it.

    Furthermore, it seems that our memory is so selective as to remiss about one's childhood or the moments when one was satisfied with life. But, this is reckless and absurd to only try and think about the positives in life. In Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, it would be tantamount to the cognitive distortion of asserting an over-generalization along with minimizing the positive and magnifying the negative, I think.


    One might even say that depression sometimes is rational or sets the stage for realistic thought(?) But, let's not kid ourselves, depression simply sucks. We don't wish it upon others, even though schadenfreude is a real thing. I have set myself the goal of treating happiness as a byproduct of getting along with life. Yet, it is my life that is characterized as sad and full of depression. Therefore, how do I move on from feeling tired of being negative and sad?

    Ultimately, if things do exist in a dichotomy of control, one feels out of control, lost, and anxious about the fact that they are not happy. Isn't this trope overly simplistic and devoid of any sense of understanding? Is it not a short-circuit towards the denial of life when not feeling happy, or full of boredom?

    So, what's the issue with treating depression as a bad thing? One can read Dostoevsky, or Emil Cioran, and feel a sense of happiness that depression is something other people experience. One feels, perhaps, not happy, but, content that it is a genuine emotion that stems from an authentic care for others or oneself. I have always thought that people with depression experience an overabundance of empathy for their future selves, or in the bast case scenario for other inhabitants of the world.

    Hence, if a person recognizes that inherent danger of attaining happiness, then how do they avoid becoming sad, depressed, or sulk over its lack-of in their lives instead of accepting it and moving on? Quintessentially, how does one move on from depression, if it bears so much truth about the world around us, as full of negativity?
    Shawn

    I would argue happiness is just any positive feeling/emotion that makes the person glad they are in that "situation". I define happiness as just slightly better than contentment.

    I would argue "refined contentment" and/or happiness is strongly desired by every person and culture on the planet.
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    Hence, if a person recognizes that inherent danger of attaining happiness, then how do they avoid becoming sad, depressed, or sulk over its lack-of in their lives instead of accepting it and moving on? Quintessentially, how does one move on from depression, if it bears so much truth about the world around us, as full of negativity?Shawn

    Join the military if you can or if you can afford it go sky diving often. There are other options if you can't do the previous two options.
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    I would argue happiness is just any positive feeling/emotion that makes the person glad they are in that "situation". I define happiness as just slightly better than contentment.christian2017

    But, isn't that inherently Faustian, and falls into the category of trying to relive one's happiness, when it is simply fleeting, ethereal, and a feature or byproduct of things out of one's control?

    I view the existence of places like Disneyland, theme parks, and roller-coaster rides, as the product of faulty thinking, as if the situation itself could be recreated. It all has the hallmarks of some sort of solipsistic thought or delusion???
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    Join the military if you can or if you can afford it go sky diving often.christian2017

    I was in the military for a very brief while, and it was not fun. I went haywire over feeling absolutely out of control, and at the whim of another person.
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    I would also like to comment on the defining feature of humanity of having a willpower.

    Schopenhauer is said to have promoted the notion of or towards subterfuging one's willpower to the Will of Nature. It's is very difficult at times to fight with nature. Personally, I have concluded that to fight with Nature, is futile and pointless. Yet, every being has a will and is guided by it to entertain what is most desirable, and it's attainment.

    Since, the attainment of happiness coincides with the exertion of willpower, one at times might feel desperate to enhance its magnitude by indulging in activities that promote what can be pleasurable.

    Does anyone see the futility of exerting willpower over something that is fleeting and temporal?
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    I would argue happiness is just any positive feeling/emotion that makes the person glad they are in that "situation". I define happiness as just slightly better than contentment.
    — christian2017

    But, isn't that inherently Faustian, and falls into the category of trying to relive one's happiness, when it is simply fleeting, ethereal, and a feature or byproduct of things out of one's control?

    I view the existence of places like Disneyland, theme parks, and roller-coaster rides, as the product of faulty thinking, as if the situation itself could be recreated. It all has the hallmarks of some sort of solipsistic thought or delusion???
    Shawn

    Faust is the protagonist of a classic German legend, based on the historical Johann Georg Faust. The erudite Faust is highly successful yet dissatisfied with his life, which leads him to make a pact with the Devil at a crossroads, exchanging his soul for unlimited knowledge and worldly pleasures. The Faust legend has been the basis for many literary, artistic, cinematic, and musical works that have reinterpreted it through the ages. "Faust" and the adjective "Faustian" imply a situation in which an ambitious person surrenders moral integrity in order to achieve power and success for a limited term.

    I would argue not having a strong desire to put yourself in harms way on a daily basis is very often (not in every case) an indication that a person is happy.

    As of right now i don't see how my initial quote relates to Faust.
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    Join the military if you can or if you can afford it go sky diving often.
    — christian2017

    I was in the military for a very brief while, and it was not fun. I went haywire over feeling absolutely out of control, and at the whim of another person.
    Shawn

    I assume your from the US? Thats great that you were able to make it in the modern military. I couldn't make it in the modern military. The civil war era or 19th century military was much different due to a more simple approach from the stand point of what the individual had to do. The modern military really eats its members alive.

    Have a great week!
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    I would argue not having a strong desire to put yourself in harms way on a daily basis is very often (not in every case) an indication that a person is happy.

    As of right now i don't see how my initial quote relates to Faust.
    christian2017

    Yes, perhaps it was a random or fleeting sentiment. But, it seems in a manner that is counter-intuitive to say or behave as if one were immune to the loss of happiness, manifesting in depressive thought or sadness. Does that make any sense?
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    I would argue not having a strong desire to put yourself in harms way on a daily basis is very often (not in every case) an indication that a person is happy.

    As of right now i don't see how my initial quote relates to Faust.
    — christian2017

    Yes, perhaps it was a random or fleeting sentiment. But, it seems in a manner that is counter-intuitive to say or behave as if one were immune to the loss of happiness, manifesting in depressive thought or sadness. Does that make any sense?
    Shawn

    My assumption is you don't have alot of money and you are observant or very observant? I don't feel i should offer you alot of advice because of who you are and what you've accomplished. Ignorance is bliss but beyond that maybe you should ask someone else on this forum for advice.

    Have a great week!
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    My assumption is you don't have alot of money and you are observant or very observant? I don't feel i should offer you alot of advice because of who you are and what you've accomplished. Ignorance is bliss but beyond that maybe you should ask someone else on this forum for advicechristian2017

    These past ten years, since I've moved back to the US, I have spent so much time, money, and effort at the desire to feel less depressed, in terms of happiness. I felt the need to reevaluate everything to better understand myself and my aspirations.

    For a very long time, I have been delving into attempts to promote happiness. Yet, almost every time I have realized that all of this has been futile or in vain.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.9k
    Does anyone see the futility of exerting willpower over something that is fleeting and temporal?Shawn

    Schopenhauer believed that the striving after goals and getting bored were the two poles of human life. All of this is mediated by Will as manifested in space, time, causality in the subective animal being. i'd add that life is essentially striving-after-goals by way of survival, maintenance (doing laundry, dishes, temperature controls, etc.), and entertainment (anything to keep mind occupied). His main idea to combat Will was was to diminish the Will by denying one's own will-to-live with asceticism- basically eating very little, doing very little, striving after little to nothing. Like some notion of Christian "grace" and Buddha's enlightenment, one was to eventually diminish one's own striving Will and perhaps destroy the subject-object duality, or something like that.

    My own take on it is that life is absurd. The absurdity is the repetition of striving after survival, maintenance, and entertainment and then enforcing this onto a new generation by procreating. Collectively humanity can perhaps see the absurdity of the repetition. Happiness seems to be one of several main reasons people want to perpetuate more people and enculturate them in the current society. Procreating a person is actually a political decision, nothing noble. It is simply a witting or unwitting way to continue a way-of-life by enculturating yet more followers into society's ways-of-life. What does one suppose the new person would get out life? Happiness? Self-actualization? Self-realization? It's all been done by countless others, and yet not much more comes out of it for the individual person. The only thing that really gets anything is the epiphenomenal outcome of people's efforts- which is the politico-social-economic order. All these aspects grow as people are used to feed it. These social institutions are strengthened by each individual being thrown into its machinations. People are thrown into the game of "life" (the society they are born into), have to "deal with it" and then somehow be fulfilled in this endeavor, lest the be called a cranky depressive.
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    My assumption is you don't have alot of money and you are observant or very observant? I don't feel i should offer you alot of advice because of who you are and what you've accomplished. Ignorance is bliss but beyond that maybe you should ask someone else on this forum for advice
    — christian2017

    These past ten years, since I've moved back to the US, I have spent so much time, money, and effort at the desire to feel less depressed, in terms of happiness. I felt the need to reevaluate everything to better understand myself and my aspirations.

    For a very long time, I have been delving into attempts to promote happiness. Yet, almost every time I have realized that all of this has been futile or in vain.
    Shawn

    You've been in alot of romantic relationship? I would argue most homeless people are homeless because they keep using drugs to make themselves forget about past relationships.

    Talk to someone you trust about how to repair a broken heart. People are social animals and without people most people get depressed. This is assuming women or significant others is the issue?
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    Procreating a person is actually a political decision, nothing noble. It is simply a witting or unwitting way to continue a way-of-life by enculturating yet more followers into society's ways-of-life.schopenhauer1

    Most men have children because women want children. Men want sex so they get with a woman. If you are trying to avoid having children of your own, then get with a girl who already has children. When she asks for help with her children now she owes you something. You get to be the hero and the "edge" of worrying about children isn't there because they really aren't your children.

    Women have an intrinsic desire to have children because people are animals. Not a hard and fast rule.
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    My assumption is you don't have alot of money and you are observant or very observant? I don't feel i should offer you alot of advice because of who you are and what you've accomplished. Ignorance is bliss but beyond that maybe you should ask someone else on this forum for adviceShawn

    If you are gay, there is nothing biblically wrong sleeping in the same room like Bert and Ernie. I'm not going into everything else the Bible says. Actually straight men very often used to sleep in the same bed and that was very common. David and Jonathan had a love for each other that exceeded the love between a man and woman (KJV). I'm not going into what else the Bible says about that. lol.
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    Schopenhauer believed that the striving after goals and getting bored were the two poles of human life.schopenhauer1

    Yes... The striving itself is the issue as you point out.

    All of this is mediated by Will as manifested in space, time, causality in the subective animal being.schopenhauer1

    Schopenhauer was right about some things; but, I do not agree with his Principle of Sufficient Reason. People seemingly have some say on the outcome of events, pointing towards a will that has the potential to have some effect. Otherwise, nothing much would make sense.

    His main idea to combat Will was was to diminish the Will by denying one's own will-to-live with asceticism- basically eating very little, doing very little, striving after little to nothing.schopenhauer1

    I have experienced the futility of my own will many times. It seems to me that the issue is not per se, one's will; but, that the desired effect that it may have. Therefore, it isn't necessarily bad that one restrain or constrain one's will. This is where he seems to deviate from the Upanishads.

    My own take on it is that life is absurd.schopenhauer1

    Not my sentiment. If the possibility of life leaves open the opportunity to creating some sense of meaning of it, then this doesn't really make sense in that light.

    Happiness seems to be one of several main reasons people want to perpetuate more people and enculturate them in the current society.schopenhauer1

    This is arguably true to a degree. The fear of loss of happiness, and thus strife seems to me to be the prime motivator.

    The only thing that really gets anything is the epiphenomenal outcome of people's efforts- which is the politico-social-economic order. All these aspects grow as people are used to feed it. These social institutions are strengthened by each individual being thrown into its machinations. People are thrown into the game of "life" (the society they are born into), have to "deal with it" and then somehow be fulfilled in this endeavor, lest the be called a cranky depressive.schopenhauer1

    This is quite enlightening. It seems that the point here that Schopenhauer was getting at is that the political sphere is where things actually get done. It's strange to assert that given how many wills manifest in this sphere of interest...
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    You've been in alot of romantic relationship?christian2017

    No, I do not see myself happy in a relationship. Not because of self-esteem issues; but, rather because it seems to me that responsibility is something I hate to assume. There, I've elucidated the inner-Cynic!
  • schopenhauer1
    3.9k
    Most men have children because women want children.christian2017

    Possibly, a lot of men want children too. I will say the pressure to prefer children is greater in women, but this is definitely cultural, not anything biological, lest we make a genetic fallacy as to its origins.

    Men want sex so they get with a woman.christian2017

    Women also like sex and both sexes know where babies come from and in Western/modern society know how and can prevent it.

    If you are trying to avoid having children of your own, then get with a girl who already has children. When she asks for help with her children now she owes you something. You get to be the hero and the "edge" of worrying about children isn't there because they really aren't your children.christian2017

    This seems naive and a bit strange. There are plenty of ways to not have children where one doesn't have to enter a relationship with someone who already has them. You can try to avoid children by birth control.

    Women have an intrinsic desire to have children because people are animals. Not a hard and fast rule.christian2017

    People have an intrinsic desire for physical pleasure perhaps, but not a preference such as procreation. See here for more information: https://personal.eur.nl/veenhoven/Pub1970s/75c-full.pdf
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    You've been in alot of romantic relationship?
    — christian2017

    No, I do not see myself happy in a relationship. Not because of self-esteem issues; but, rather because it seems to me that responsibility is something I hate to assume. There, I've elucidated the inner-Cynic!
    Shawn

    You sound really depressed based on that you appear not to enjoy hobbies and you have no desire to be with either a man or woman. Have you considered moving to another country when this COVID 19 virus clears up? I understand that could be 6 months. If i was single with no children, i wouldn't be living in my native country. My assumption is living in some distant place would cheer you up?

    Can you last 6 months? My guess is you lack pride when you probably should have pride. I wish you the best.
  • Shawn
    10.4k


    So strange. As I was reminiscing about my life and posting this, I have been cultivating the urge to move back to another country. I certainly don't hope it will take 6 months for things to clear up.
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    Most men have children because women want children.
    — christian2017

    Possibly, a lot of men want children too. I will say the pressure to prefer children is greater in women, but this is definitely cultural, not anything biological, lest we make a genetic fallacy as to its origins.

    Men want sex so they get with a woman.
    — christian2017

    Women also like sex and both sexes know where babies come from and in Western/modern society know how and can prevent it.

    If you are trying to avoid having children of your own, then get with a girl who already has children. When she asks for help with her children now she owes you something. You get to be the hero and the "edge" of worrying about children isn't there because they really aren't your children.
    — christian2017

    This seems naive and a bit strange. There are plenty of ways to not have children where one doesn't have to enter a relationship with someone who already has them. You can try to avoid children by birth control.

    Women have an intrinsic desire to have children because people are animals. Not a hard and fast rule.
    — christian2017

    People have an intrinsic desire for physical pleasure perhaps, but not a preference such as procreation. See here for more information: https://personal.eur.nl/veenhoven/Pub1970s/75c-full.pdf
    schopenhauer1

    No your wrong women (not a hard and fast rule) tend to have the desire to have children far more than men. Don't get all you concepts of reality from Hollywood movies and the Huffington Post.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.9k
    No your wrong women (not a hard and fast rule) tend to have the desire to have children far more than men.christian2017

    Read the article, it has some good evidence right there. What is your evidence that women have a biological "desire" for children? Remember, this is different then a desire for sexual pleasure, physical affection, or being social in general. Rather, the specific preference "to want a child".. how can you prove that to be biological and not merely a preference, something akin to, "I want a red Corvette"?
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    ↪christian2017

    So strange. As I was reminiscing about my life and posting this, I have been cultivating the urge to move back to another country. I certainly don't hope it will take 6 months for things to clear up.
    Shawn

    thats cool. Take care.
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    No your wrong women (not a hard and fast rule) tend to have the desire to have children far more than men.
    — christian2017

    Read the article, it has some good evidence right there. What is your evidence that women have a biological "desire" for children? Remember, this is different then a desire for sexual pleasure, physical affection, or being social in general. Rather, the specific preference "to want a child".. how is can you prove that to be biological and not merely a preference, something akin to, "I want a red Corvette"?
    schopenhauer1

    Did you post an article? What article?

    How can you prove the other way around?

    Nevermind your right men and women want children roughly equal. Man.... i'm wrong. Now i'm sad. But atleast i didn't have to search on google or bing about what i've seen over the past 20 years. Well i dodged a bullet.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.9k
    Not my sentiment. If the possibility of life leaves open the opportunity to creating some sense of meaning of it, then this doesn't really make sense in that light.Shawn

    We can get caught up in various "projects" that "occupy the mind", but it is in moments of profound boredom, when the mind cannot get "hooked" that the absurdity comes through. Your questions seem to come out of those "unhooked" moments.. Most psychologists will try to set you on the course of the getting back to being hooked on something- things to make time go by and be preoccupied. Others may say to dwell in the feeling of repose and meditate. I'm just saying, overall there is not much more to life than surviving, maintaining, and entertaining oneself. It is the understanding of these repetitive endeavors (in the wide context of life itself, not any individual day or context), where you can really take in the absurdity of the repetition.

    This is quite enlightening. It seems that the point here that Schopenhauer was getting at is that the political sphere is where things actually get done. It's strange to assert that given how many wills manifest in this sphere of interest...Shawn

    I was not speaking purely for Schopenhauer there, that was only the beginning part about the Will. I was just elucidating on my understanding as I have seen it as to how individuals relate to society, and the negative nature of birth but positive nature to society (how it puts the individual at a deficit, yet contributes to the growth of the society). One was never in control of whether one should live or not, one barely has control of one's own environs as there are necessary constraints on how humans can survive and relate to the world in general (i.e. social animals that work in a societal setting, the physical constraints of time, know-how, ability, capacities, causality, etc.).
  • schopenhauer1
    3.9k
    Man.... i'm wrong. Now i'm sad. But atleast i didn't have to search on google or bing about what i've seen over the past 20 years. Well i dodged a bullet.christian2017

    Hey, again... You can "see" whatever you want. I asked to prove that the preference is biological. You are simply giving the consequence of that preference- the vocal preference to procreate. However, where does that desire arise? If you say biological, what actual biological processes lead to this? Hormones regulate mood, maybe things like taste, and physical responses to stimuli.. they do NOT put a specific linguistic thought into people's minds.. "I want X (in this case a child)". Do you see where I'm getting at? Also, read the paper.. It's here: https://personal.eur.nl/veenhoven/Pub1970s/75c-full.pdf
  • Shawn
    10.4k
    We can get caught up in various "projects" that "occupy the mind", but it is in moments of profound boredom, when the mind cannot get "hooked" that the absurdity comes through. Your questions seem to come out of those "unhooked" moments.. Most psychologists will try to set you on the course of the getting back to being hooked on something- things to make time go by and be preoccupied. Others may say to dwell in the feeling of repose and meditate. I'm just saying, overall there is not much more to life than surviving, maintaining, and entertaining oneself. It is the understanding of these repetitive endeavors (in the wide context of life itself, not any individual day or context), where you can really take in the absurdity of the repetition.schopenhauer1

    Yes; but, it seems to me that if we had people like Viktor Frankl that there must be meaning in such an absurd world, don't you think?

    I was not speaking purely for Schopenhauer there, that was only the beginning part about the Will.schopenhauer1

    Well, yes; but, that is the logical conclusion from his philosophy, ain't it?
  • christian2017
    1.1k
    Man.... i'm wrong. Now i'm sad. But atleast i didn't have to search on google or bing about what i've seen over the past 20 years. Well i dodged a bullet.
    — christian2017

    Hey, again... You can "see" whatever you want. I asked to prove that the preference is biological. You are simply giving the consequence of that preference- the vocal preference to procreate. However, where does that desire arise? If you say biological, what actual biological processes lead to this? Hormones regulate mood, maybe things like taste, and physical responses to stimuli.. they do NOT put a specific linguistic thought into people's minds.. "I want X (in this case a child)". Do you see where I'm getting at? Also, read the paper.. It's here: https://personal.eur.nl/veenhoven/Pub1970s/75c-full.pdf
    schopenhauer1

    thats fair. I have other artilces to read. I'll add that article to my journal and i'll get to it next week.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.9k
    Yes; but, it seems to me that if we had people like Viktor Frankl that there must be meaning in such an absurd world, don't you think?Shawn

    I think his idea was find meaning in the absurdity, yadayada. I admire the man, but I don't take such a positive view of what is actually going on. In this case, I defer more to Schopenhauer's view, survival-boredom (or my refinement: survival, maintenance, boredom/entertainment, repeat). I agree one can find meaning in the projects and preoccupations-- try to find pursuits in pleasure, flow states, relationships, aesthetic pleasure/humor, learning, etc. by various experiences, but I see all these episodes in the broader context of surviving, maintaining, entertaining mediated through a societal milieu (be that Western, tribal, etc.). This striving as the basis is absurd in its never-ending satiation, but-for-no-end. One only get true glimpses of this absurdity when one feels that profound boredom or existential vacuum.

    Well, yes; but, that is the logical conclusion from his philosophy, ain't it?Shawn

    Which part? I had my own stuff in there.. Schop's own logical conclusion is that one must deny-the-will to live.. I am even less enamored by such an idea that this can be accomplished. Rather, I advocate for a collective understanding of our absurdity and a commitment not to enrich society at the behest of making new people suffer as well as not forcing more people into its machinations by via procreation and enculturation. That goes for any society, not any particular one. It could be multi-faceted globalized Western/modern one or a small tribal one.. It's all the same using people and enculturating them. It is all causing more people to exist who will suffer.
  • schopenhauer1
    3.9k
    thats fair. I have other artilces to read. I'll add that article to my journal and i'll get to it next week.christian2017

    Sounds good.. Thanks for keeping an open mind! :up:
  • christian2017
    1.1k


    I read the article. Yeah i would have to agree that there is a strong possibility animals don't really put alot of long term thought about having sex with the other animal will cause a child. I'm not saying alot of animals don't equate that (sex = offspring), but they quite likely don't run scenarios through there head alot about whats going to happen next after the sex act.
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