• Txastopher
    106
    Sorry that your indulgence gets in the way of being a compassionate human being. Not only is this an ignorant position, because it is clear that there are an endless amount of Vegan foods that you can also indulge in (French fries, pasta, etc). But it also shows your lack of empathy and consistency, that your 'taste pleasure' is more important than the lives you're willing to kill for it.chatterbears

    I'm a hedonist. My life project and that of the animals I eat, or potentially eat me, are in conflict, yes. Also, by having close friendships with a few people, I am denying the boon of my friendship to the world's friendless. In fact, now I come to think of it, almost everything I do has an unfortunate corollary. It's hard to know where to start given that my very existence is essentially a moral aberration.

    Now that you've sorted out your relationship with other animals, what are going to put right next?
  • NKBJ
    300
    However, what bothers me about vegan 'superlativism' is its intolerance, as shown on this thread, for anyone who doesn't go to the same extremes.Txastopher

    This coming from the person who suggested we should just ignore theists so as to get rid of them?

    I have no problem admitting that I don't think the middle ground is always the way to go.
    I don't see a plausible middle ground between slavery and equal rights for humans.
    I don't see a plausible middle ground between child abuse and parenting as best you can.
    And many other examples...

    If you draw a line and say "here, this is ethical enough" you have to be able to justify it with more than just labeling an even more ethical stance "extreme" without any real argument to back you up.
  • chatterbears
    212
    Kill neither because you hold that the philosophical bases of veganism to be true? = logical EXTREMIST!Txastopher

    My philosophical basis for Veganism is to be logically consistent within your ethical decisions and the justifications you use for those decisions. We can start here, why do you eat meat, Txastopher?

    Out of curiosity, which came first in your case; not consuming animal products or being a vegan?Txastopher

    This is quite nonsensical. Not consuming animal products is the definition of being Vegan. That's like asking, "Which came first in your case; not having hair or being bald?"

    This would depend on the strength of the analogy between humans and other animals, which, as has been shown multiple times on this thread, is far from adamantine.Txastopher

    Any opposition has not stated anything worth of substance. The only thing they have said is, "That comparison is bad and doesn't work." - It's easy to just ignorantly assert something without providing a proper rebuttal or counter-argument to support your assertion.

    If you don't think Slavery has many similarities to factory farming, provide some counter-argument other than, "It's different."
  • chatterbears
    212
    Also, by having close friendships with a few people, I am denying the boon of my friendship to the world's friendless.Txastopher

    Conflating friendship possibility to the possibility of ending harm to the best you can, is absurd.
  • Txastopher
    106
    However, what bothers me about vegan 'superlativism' is its intolerance, as shown on this thread, for anyone who doesn't go to the same extremes.
    — Txastopher

    This coming from the person who suggested we should just ignore theists so as to get rid of them?
    NKBJ

    Can you unpack this a little, please?
  • SherlockH
    73
    It would be more justified to eat death row criminals and bodies donated after death. Animals are often bread just to be tortured, expirimented on, eaten and abused. Often those used for these type of purposes dont ever know any real happiness. Also Cannibilising other humans creates a medical disorders in humans. Thats going under the idea only non innocent creatures must become victems though. Children and animals by default are mostly pretty innocent. Also if you never commit a crime you are also very innocent. We eat animals becuase we genetically need meat to survive.
  • Txastopher
    106
    Not consuming animal products is the definition of being Vegan.chatterbears

    I hope not! I'm sure that many people would potentially like to give up animal products, but would hesitate if they thought they might be classed as vegans since the term is synonymous in so many circles with 'self-righteous dick'.
  • chatterbears
    212
    We eat animals becuase we genetically need meat to survive.SherlockH

    This is false.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1REgp2VreWfgHhatxycdk0GN6P9HyXID6UTzuNb4f7sY/edit?usp=sharing

    There's my google doc with scientific/peer-reviewed evidence that is cited. There's a health and environmental tab if you need both.
  • chatterbears
    212
    I hope not! I'm sure that many people would potentially like to give up animal products, but would hesitate if they thought they might be classed as vegans since the term is synonymous in so many circles with 'self-righteous dick'.Txastopher

    This is similar to people who don't believe in God, but don't want to be classified as an "Atheist", because the term "Atheist" is synonymous in so many circles with 'devil' or 'immoral monster'. Just because people have a warped and/or incorrect view of a 'group label', doesn't mean people shouldn't use that label. If anything, that is a chance for us to educate them on what the 'group label' actually stands for and what it means.

    I don't care if people think I am a 'self-righteous dick' for not wanting to cause animals any harm. They can be ignorant in their assumptions, just as the person who holds prejudice against an 'Atheist'.
  • Txastopher
    106
    Vegans, if I were to be on the point of killing a cow, would you kill me to save the cow?
  • chatterbears
    212
    Are you going to ignore my comments/questions and continue to ask your own? I asked why you eat meat.
  • Txastopher
    106
    I've already detailed my reasons and habits regarding meat eating upthread. Also, since just about everything you've produced on this thread is nonsense and the fact that you've produced so much of it, even responding to your very occasional bouts of semi-coherence would require an effort inversely proportional to the intellectual satifisfaction your subsequent response is likely to contain.
  • Txastopher
    106
    We eat animals becuase we genetically need meat to survive.
    — SherlockH

    This is false.

    There's my google doc with scientific/peer-reviewed evidence that is cited. There's a health and environmental tab if you need both.
    chatterbears

    SherlockH, if you're genuinely interested in the health benefits of animal products in diet, it's probably best to look elsewhere than a cherry-picked selection curated by an avowed vegan.
  • chatterbears
    212
    if you're genuinely interested in the health benefits of animal products in diet, it's probably best to look elsewhere than a cherry-picked selection curated by an avowed vegan.Txastopher

    Again, it's funny to hear the opposition assert things without evidence. How about you provide him with the scientific peer-reviewed evidence (within the past 5 years) supporting your bald faced assertion. Because I provided multiple scientific sources from different countries that all point to the same thing. This is what a scientific consensus is. Sorry if you're new to scientific literature and journals.
  • Uber
    147
    Falsifying the laughable claim that "we eat animals because we genetically need meat to survive" does not require fancy studies. It literally just requires a single counterexample. I'll take Donald Watson, the pioneer of the word "vegan." He became a vegan at 32 and survived until 95.

    Between this comment and the gems we're getting from xastopher, this thread continues on its epic journey of crazy.
  • chatterbears
    212
    Between this comment and the gems we're getting from xastopher, this thread continues on its epic journey of devolution.Uber

    I told you, even when supplying them with scientific studies that support a plant-based diet, people like Txastopher will still reject it and say I am cherry-picking evidence, lol. There's no winning with willfully ignorant people like Txastopher, who provide no evidence for their counter-claim, and just assert things.
  • Uber
    147
    When people make claims that reach a certain level of idiocy, scientific studies are not the appropriate response. Derision and humor work better.
  • NasloxiehRorsxez
    3
    Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I don't feel like reading through the entire thread..

    But what do vegans think of hunters? You could argue that hunting a wild animal quickly and painlessly is ethically preferable to an animal that is very likely to die in a gruesome or painful manner. I don't know how statistically common it is for an animal to die due to their maximum age capacity, but even if that's the case I'd wager that's not a painless death.
  • chatterbears
    212
    But what do vegans think of hunters?NasloxiehRorsxez

    If there's an alternative, then I would say it is unnecessary. If it is a case, such as in an indigenous tribe, then hunting becomes more necessary, because they survive off the land.

    I don't know how statistically common it is for an animal to die due to their maximum age capacity, but even if that's the case I'd wager that's not a painless death.NasloxiehRorsxez

    Put yourself in the shoes of an animal. Would you rather live a longer life, free from pain and suffering, and die a possibly painful death [such as cancer]? Or would you rather live a shorter life that is full of pain and suffering [horrible living conditions], followed by getting your throat slit?
  • Buxtebuddha
    1.8k
    For me it depends on the hunter. I have less of a problem with responsible hunters, especially those out in Montana, Wyoming, etc. where they have livestock to protect and feed, for example. Trophy hunters, though? Your typical deer hunter? Not so much. You'll be told that we have to hunt deer because otherwise the population will get out of hand, but the same people forget to tell you that people like them nearly exterminated other natural predators like bobcats and wolves, so the issue now is almost entirely man-made. This may be fine to some extent, however, if hunters hunted for food, but most don't - they hunt for sport. And even if we were to outlaw hunting, that wouldn't solve the industrial farming of livestock as it is today. Besides, and as I alluded to above, responsible hunters have more respect for animals than your typical grocery store shopper who doesn't think much about where their food comes from. It'd be more effective to change the latter meat consumer's mind first rather than the former's.

    Also, just because it's brilliant and somewhat relevant.

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