• Arne
    295
    And your last statement of course is as childish as your beliefs.NKBJ

    my beliefs?

    I made a two sentence general comment to which you responded with a treatise.

    Had you spent half as much time thinking about what I said as you did articulating your misinterpreation of it, you wouldn't have to pretend you were the adult in the room.
  • Eugenio Ullauri
    6
    At the largest level there is not a creator however we dont know the largest level so there is chance that a creator created all that we can see but a creator cannot create all that exists, i am saying that if we are in a simulation there is a creator who made that simulation if we are not then there is not a creator
  • NKBJ
    316
    first who is this 'we' you are referring toMr Phil O'Sophy

    Humans. Homo Sapiens.

    I’m pretty sure that most religious refer to the world as a place of chaos that ultimately ends in destructionMr Phil O'Sophy

    Most religions have this world ending only to enter the next, perfect world. Chaos is only part of a divine plan, i.e. divine order.

    They become sick of the sense of constant observance and feel sick of it making them feel guilty when they watch porn, or consume drugs, or act promiscuously and in order to act as they desire give up their faith. So it’s not as simple as you suggest in your response here.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    How does that make sense? "I stopped believing in god because I got tired of him watching me" that statement entails a belief in god.

    I think the next step now is for you to offer this apparent evidence that God doesn’t exist, or that religions aren’t established by anything other than drunks, drug abusers or crazy people. Since their is mountains of it, that shouldn’t be hard to produceMr Phil O'Sophy

    How do you go about proving to a child that there is no monster in her room? You look under the bed and show there is no monster there. You look in the closet and show there is no monster there. You look behind the curtains and show there is no monster there.

    Same with religion. The soul was supposed to be in the body or around it somewhere, but when we looked, it wasn't there. God was supposed to be in the clouds, but we looked and he isn't there. We're looking far and wide into the universe, but he simply isn't there.

    To go from this to *THEREFORE THERE IS NO GOD*, is a massive jump in reasoning.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    I didn't say the awesomeness of existence was proof god doesn't exist. I was countering Arne's claim that not believing is somehow boring.

    This is a completely different argument to the one you are incorrectly inferring was my position. That being that I think: “you need to have belief in order to stop the above mentioned bad habits.” That’s a straw man of the point I was trying to make that puts the causal chain in the wrong direction than the one I was attempting to infer. It is not my opinion that is the case, nor did I suggest such a thing.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    You were trying to claim that believing in a creator entailed some changes in your life. But I argue that simply growing up would suffice. Since you now claim those changes came after the belief we're back to my original claim, that there are psychological reasons of wanting a safety net in an unsafe world that
    lead to religiosity.

    You can make that claim towards specific individuals in which that might very well be the case (I don’t doubt there are people who become religious for such reasons), but you can’t generalize that towards all people who are believers in a God. That’s not an empirically backed statement but a wild generalization based on what I assume is an intuition based on a study with limited case numbers. Unless of course you can reference that claim with a study which suggests there is enough evidence to deduce that this is the fundamental reason religious people become believers? In which case I might be willing to reconsider. I think it is much more likely however that the millions of people that believe in God do so for a multiplicity of varied reasons.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    I think it's funny that you don't insist on empirical evidence for your beliefs, but that you demand it of mine. It's a theory with a rich history in psychology and the humanities and numerous studies have shown the relationship between one's god-concept and the types of parenting you received as a child:
    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244014560547#_i1 Here's an example of such research.
    Another explanation is that we are biologically programmed to attribute consciousness to inanimate things, including the universe, because it's safer to do so. Like assuming the shadow in the forest is a tiger rather than a stone makes it more likely you will flee and survive rather than stay and be eaten. But this interpretation can be combined with the former very easily.

    They are explicitly exposed to it, and are said to be tested the most by it. They are offered a certain amount of protection, but so are non-believers. Everyone is given periods of respite, and are periodically plunged back into tribulation throughout life.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Right. But with a deity you can pass or fail the test and the result is...? You're either rewarded or punished and if God wants to, he can fix everything and make it all better. Just like when you were a child.

    There may be examples that you could use to refer to a paternal nature in some limited respect, yes; but there are also names which could be described as somewhat maternal, and others which are completely unique to a creator, and can not be said to be attributed to a father figure or a mother figure.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Names of Allah that together make him paternal:
    Kind, Just, Forgiving, Nourisher, Generous, Watchful, Wise, Loving, Giver of Live, Strong, Firm, Guide, Teacher, Knower.... etc.
    All the other names just make him divine on top of it. Which is rooted in our psychological need to replace the father/mother we realized was imperfect at some point while growing up.

    Also, it’s not like religious people are incapable of being productive in real world endeavors. There are numerous examples that completely disprove this wild accusation.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    I didn't say that religious people aren't productive. But they are wasting time that could be spent more productively when they sit around praying, or meditating, or sacrificing sheep, or whatever.

    Yes, and most of that raises more questions than it intended to answer.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Sure, but you still have the remaining fact that they have not yet come across a single, tiny, minuscule speck of evidence pointing to the presence of a divinity, but huge quantities of research pointing to a totally natural beginning of the universe. With no evidence in your favor, it makes no sense to continue believing. You can retain the idea as a hypothesis if you really want to, but that's about as useful as retaining hypotheses about unicorns and leprechauns.

    The theory of the Big Bang is backed up by plenty of research and articles, you really just have to google it.

    I find that most people appeal to authority such as trained professionals rather than to delve into the entirety of subject material. Or they appeal to the most common decision. Or they react emotionally due to the quite reasonable fear of death. Not many people demand to see evidence and proofs for every treatment of every illness even if it is true and the evidence is available. Many people are quite willing to rely on their intuition, and put their faith in medical professionals regardless of their lack of understanding in the subject. There are also other possible motivations for someone offering particular treatment, such as monetary profit fueled by greed or vindictive urges fueled by a malicious practitioner.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Relying on professionals to know about their own fields is not an appeal to authority. You're confused about when that fallacy applies. It's different than saying x must be true because one expert on x says it's true. Relying on proven medicine is vastly different than taking one single doc's advice. But I guess maybe you'd be one of those cases that would reject medicine and try to cure your cancer with crystals and incense. Or maybe just pray? Good luck with that!
  • NKBJ
    316
    treatiseArne

    A treatise is typically much longer than a few sentences. But I'm sorry you seem to be the type who wants to dish it out ("you're so boring") but can't take being called out on it. Childish indeed.
  • NKBJ
    316
    And I sure as hell don't claim to have one of those, do you?Arne

    The concept of an almighty, all-knowing, and all-good deity is simply illogical.

    But if you mean by "shut down" something that will actually shut people up, that's impossible. People will defend the craziest things.
  • Arne
    295
    Childish indeed.NKBJ

    Mr. "voodoo" man, your very first comment was an insult to all who do not think like you.

    Anytime you want to stop the BS and get over yourself, let me know.

    I am not going anywhere.
  • Arne
    295
    You were trying to claim that believing in a creator entailed some changes in your life. But I argue that simply growing up would suffice.NKBJ

    You are anti-philosophical.

    Seriously, this is not the "atheist" forum.

    Your continual insulting of people is counter productive and hardly supports your claim to being the adult in the room.
  • NKBJ
    316


    If voodoo is insulting to you, like I said, that just makes you racist and bigoted.

    And my telling Phil that relinquishing hedonism, like he has, is just a natural part of growing up and not necessarily linked to religiosity, was not insulting, nor did he take it as such. You clearly don't even understand the conversation he and I are having.

    You also clearly have no understanding of psychology, or you would know that tracing adult impulses and desires back to childhood is not insulting.

    But when I say that your words here have been nothing but a string of childish outbursts, then I do mean that negatively. But that's just you.
  • Arne
    295
    If voodoo is insulting to you, like I said, that just makes you racist and bigoted.NKBJ

    dude, you are the one who told me not to engage in it.
  • Arne
    295
    But when I say that your words here have been nothing but a string of childish outbursts, then I do mean that negatively. But that's just you.NKBJ

    thanks, dad.
  • Arne
    295
    You also clearly have no understanding of psychology, or you would know that tracing adult impulses and desires back to childhood is not insulting.NKBJ

    another adult comment on your part.

    I have yet to see a comment by you that was not insulting someone.
  • NKBJ
    316


    Yes, and equally don't engage with all other religions of the world.

    thanks, dadArne

    Case and point.

    I have yet to see a comment by you that was not insulting someoneArne

    You seem to have very thin skin. Like I said, able to dish it out, but you can't stomach critique. You freely get snide and sarcastic, but are offended when it comes back at you.
  • Arne
    295
    You seem to have very thin skin. Like I said, able to dish it out, but you can't stomach critique. You freely get snide and sarcastic, but are offended when it comes back at you.NKBJ


    Don't flatter yourself.

    You do not have that kind of power.

    Pointing out your incivility does amount to thinness of skin on my part.

    Anytime you want to stop insulting people and leave aside your canned (and therefore by definition boring) responses to meaningful issues, I will be here.
  • Arne
    295
    Yes, and equally don't engage with all other religions of the world.NKBJ

    what in the world do you mean by "other" religions?

    this is the philosophy forum.

    nothing I have said would support any conclusion as to whether I am a believer and if I were, what my religion would be.

    Knowing boring arguments when I see them is hardly a religious testimonial.

    Seriously, you know nothing about my religious disposition.

    Stop pretending you do.

    And if you actually wanted to know, all you have to do is ask.
  • NKBJ
    316


    You're not reading or thinking very carefully. I didn't make any claims about the particular religion you may or may not belong to. I just said they're all equally based on illogic.

    But perhaps this is your problem: by putting words in my mouth you can pretend I'm being insulting and therefore you don't have to respond to the particulars of the argument. What an easy way out!
  • Arne
    295
    But perhaps this is your problemNKBJ

    thanks doc
  • NKBJ
    316


    You're very welcome!
  • Arne
    295
    You're not reading or thinking very carefullyNKBJ

    this is extremely rich from a guy who thought I was wasting my time on voodoo just because I expressed a dislike for the same old boring non-believer arguments.
  • Arne
    295
    You're very welcome!NKBJ

    you forgot the smiley face. How can we make up without the smiley face? :smile:
  • NKBJ
    316


    :kiss: :kiss::kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:
  • NKBJ
    316
    this is extremely rich from a guy who thought I was wasting my time on voodoo just because I expressed a dislike for the same old boring non-believer arguments.Arne

    No new arguments coming from the believers in magic yet either. :chin:
  • Arne
    295


    Is "creator" a synonym for God?

    Is it possible the Universe is eternal in some way, expand, collapse, expand, collapse, ad infinitum?

    If that were the case, is it not then possible that the Universe is not the result of a creative act?

    And if that is the, case would that necessarily mean there is no God?

    Could there not be an infinite God as well as an infinite Universe?

    So couldn't one then believe in God without believing in a creator?

    Just asking.
  • Arne
    295
    No new arguments coming from the believers in magic yet either. :chin:NKBJ

    Finally, an excellent point.

    But I am quite certain I already stated I had a separate list of boring arguments from the believers.

    Perhaps you missed that?

    My question is whether the OP presumes creator is a synonym for God.

    That the universe may not have been the result of a creative act may be inconsistent with certain religions, but that does not necessarily negate a belief in God.
  • FreeEmotion
    122
    I defend my belief in God as Creator at least as a 50/50 probability, there being no definite answer.

    God-less creation is an assumption that forms the foundation of science. One could assume the opposite as well.

    Note that the survey results would have been different 100, 200, 3000, 5000 years ago and depends hugely on the population sample, which kind of says something about the quicksand of human opinion. In recent Western thought, though, variation from the average value is somewhat suspect also, as an aberration.
  • angslan
    49


    I defend my belief in God as Creator at least as a 50/50 probability, there being no definite answer. — FreeEmotion

    That's not really how probability works, though. You're not assessing the chances that the universe came into existence as it did from some known set of pre-conditions, so this type of probability is not applicable. Are there really only two options, as well?
  • Blake Kelson
    11
    I rank myself a 5 on the spectrum of theistic probability. I don't know if any deities exist but I'm inclined to be quite skeptical. We do know that it is in human nature to make up imaginary God's so that casts some very strong doubt on religion for me.

    The simulation hypothesis has piqued my curiosity as of late, however I don't consider myself educated enough for now to take a stance on that idea.
  • FreeEmotion
    122


    From my point of view it will be an uneducated guess, like it is for most of us.

    assessing the chances that the universe came into existence as it did from some known set of pre-conditionsangslan

    The chance that, given there is no God, or Creator, it came into existence... I cannot see how this is not a biased starting point.
  • Nitya
    3
    There are a number of ways at looking at God. If God is infinite then God is not an object. I can see the body and I can see the universe, they are objects. As I can see the body, I am not the body, as I can know if my mind and thoughts and feelings are cheerful or depressed then I am not the mind. The mind is an object and i am the witness. When I pray to God, I pray to an idea in my mind that I have accepted in the hope that I am on the right path (that is called Faith). The only fact is that that I am, I exist and I know. My belief is that God can feel my devotion and love.
    Surely the purpose of religion is to bring seekers closer to devotion and closer to God.
    Maybe God is infinite and formless, maybe God is the soul of all creation, but I cant relate to that, I can only think about such concepts as possibilities or questions that may never be answered.
    I can relate to God within me, He is not an object! He is knowing and devotion itself. Let me be closer to that!
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