• Pseudonym
    878
    Nobody confuses their mental state and/or behaviour with their genitals.Michael

    I don't know, I can think of a few footballers who do.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    A somatic delusion is where you wrongly think that your body is infested with parasites, or that you're overweight when you're actually underweightMichael

    is there a difference between saying your body is wrong, or that is not how it should be, and saying it is deceased?

    Isn't saying a body is deceased saying something is wrong with body? or the body not being as it should? Are there not connections to made there? are they not in someway synonymous and you are stretching the definition to somehow exclude something that would have otherwise been included with it?
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Isn't saying a body is deceased saying something is wrong with body? or the body not being as it should?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Yes, but the reverse isn't true. The illness is specifically in believing that you have a disease you don't have, which isn't the case for the transgender person.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    The illness is specifically in believing that you have a disease you don't have, which isn't the case for the transgender personMichael

    Only because it seems you have arbitrarily decided that if someone thinks they are something other than their body is, that means they are correct in saying so.

    I don't think anyone has sufficiently argued the point that a body can be wrong. How does that even make sense and how far can it go? For example the individual claiming to identify as an Alien, or the 50+ year old that identifies as a 6 year old girl, or the 'otherkins' that identify as animals and mythical creatures?

    https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/mvxgwa/from-dragons-to-foxes-the-otherkin-community-believes-you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be

    Your argument is just as much extended to them as it is to choosing opposite genders or deciding to transcend gender altogether. What is giving the minds capacity to think something ought to be other than it is, priority to overhow things really are. That man who thinks he's an alien is not from outer space nor does he have no gender, that 50+ year old man is not a 6 year old girl as much as he would like to be, the unicorns, fairies, cats, dogs and foxes are humans regardless of their desire to be otherwise, and that white man is not a filipino woman.

    I am not denying the fact that they may want or desire to be as they identify. But merely desiring to be something you are not, does not make something that isn't so, so.

    Your argument seems to be on a foundation of 'they feel that way therefore they are right'.

    A somatic delusion is where you think that your body has certain (abnormal) characteristics that it doesn't actually have.Michael

    i.e. the ability to think one is something one has never actually been, and so can not with any certainty say that one knows what it actually means to be the identity they claim to have.

    Can any human being know what it feels like to be a cat? Or will the fact they are human prevent them from ever truly knowing what it means to be a cat!

    Can a man really know what it feels like to be a woman? how can you be sure if you were never a woman? isn't the whole argument resting upon the fact that there is somehow some natural injustice in being trapped in the body of a particular sex and not being able to escape it? if they are in fact trapped in that body, they can not claim to know what it is like to be other than they are. They may claim so, but then why should we just believe it?

    Should that man be believed when he says he's an alien? If aliens visit, shall we assign him as our delegate because he will be best suited for any interactions with an alien species?

    I don't think anyone has sufficiently argued in favour of why what they are experiencing as a subjective experience, should be considered objective. Why simply because someone says they experience life as such, that should be seen as anything other than a delusion (the definition perfectly fits).

    Now I am in no way suggesting these individuals should be ridiculed or punished. I simply think it is a huge moral mistake to submit to their delusions and to go along with it because you don't want to hurt their feelings. I think rational individuals, have an obligation and a duty not sustain a belief that someone is other than they are. A man may dress as a woman, and identify as transgendered if he so wishes. But that would make him a man that dresses as a woman. It does not make him a woman.

    Unless you can convince me that any human being has the ability to truly know what its like to be other than they are, I can not concede to this argument in favour of sustaining false beliefs. No Human male in the world can say they understand what its like to be anything other than a human man, unless they have actually been otherwise. The case with the tribe where people start of as female might have the most right to such a claim, but I can't logically go any further than that.

    Please, if you will respond to anything I've wrote in this incredibly lengthy post, respond to that main point which I think is the crux of this argument.

    Can a man really know what it is like to be a woman?
    Can a woman really know what it is like to be a man?
    Can a human really know what its like to be an animal, a mythical creature, or an alien?
    Can anyone really know, for a fact, what its like to be something they have never been?
    Or can they only imagine and desire it?
    If I have never been in the army and fought in a war, can I say I know what its like just because I feel like i know?

    Apologies. I know this can get very heated. I don't mean to sound irate, I am certainly not. I'm sat quite calmly in the silent zone of a library. I just think the points I'm being given are extremely poorly put together and rest on compassion at all costs rather than anything rational.
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Only because it seems you have arbitrarily decided that if someone thinks they are something other than their body is, that means they are correct in saying so.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    No I'm not. I'm saying that the psychiatric definition of somatic delusions doesn't cover cases like transgenderism. It covers cases of thinking that one has some disease or abnormality that one doesn't, or exaggerating some flaw that one does have.

    Can a man really know what it feels like to be a woman?

    If the feminine essence concept of transsexuality is correct then they can, because being a woman does not depend on having female genitalia. So the fact that they don't know what it feels like to have female genitalia doesn't entail that they don't know what it feels like to be a woman. They do know what it feels like to be a woman because they are women (albeit with male genitalia).

    The issue is that you seem to equate gender with sex despite the fact that there is a distinction.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    No I'm not. I'm saying that the psychiatric definition of somatic delusions doesn't cover cases like transgenderism. It covers cases of thinking that one has some disease or abnormality that one doesn't, or exaggerating some flaw that one does have.Michael

    I really don't see how that very description doesn't apply to transgender. They are saying their body is flawed, but their mind isn't. That the mistake is in physical reality, rather than the mental reality. Why give priority to the mind over the body? Why assume the mind is right and the body wrong, rather than the other way around?

    because being a woman does not depend on having female genitaliaMichael

    And where am I claiming that the female experience depends solely on whether or not you have a vagina? The female body has much more to it than having particular things going on in the private areas. is there no unique experience to someone having a female or male body? I would say the unique experience to being a male, is that you have never been anything other than male. You have no experience of anything else. Being a woman is to have never experienced being a man. To have no idea what its like to have anything other than the body you were given and the life lived associated with that.

    If you venture beyond that, you are always going to have the fact that you have a past. If you were born male, and become female, you can't delete the memories and experience of being a male, or the surguries you had to make your body different, and so, even if everyone calls you female, you have still experienced something that females have never experienced; being male. If no female has experienced that, how can what ever the trans person is experience be made equivalent to the experience of having a female body and they associated mechanics of things that run parallel with that.

    And also, what does it mean to have a female mind? isn't the whole gender neutral argument premised on the fact that the binary is an illusion and its a spectrum? That there is no such thing as male/female brains. So which is it? Because some of these trans arguments seem to undermine the other. And doesn't it undermine the feminist movement? Isn't there a whole taboo on claiming there is such thing as a male brain or a female brain?

    The issue is that you seem to equate gender with sex, despite the fact that there is a distinction.Michael

    I really don't think I am. If there is a distinction, can I ask you: is it alright to say to a transgendered person who 'identifies as female' although they were born male, that their sex is male? Can I tell transgendered people that their sex has not changed? is it referred to as a sex change? or simply a gender change.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    @Michael

    Is the Cis-gendered experience equivalent to the trans or non-binary gendered experience?
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    @Michael

    If the answer is no, they are not equivalent, you cannot hold that a trans person that transitions from one sex to the other knows what it feels like to have a cis gendered experience. which undermines your argument.

    If the answer is yes, they are equivalent, then there is no distinction, in which case again, it undermines your argument.

    either way, a trans person can not say their experience is equivalent to the opposite sex's cis gendered experience, and regardless of how you answer, you are forced to undermine your own argument.
  • yatagarasu
    72


    People are born with mental disorders. I also mentioned that it has to do with how they were raised. Is there a study on trans people and how they were raised, like how their parents treated them as they developed (cross-dressing them, etc.). And at what point does a child actually choose his gender as opposed to it being chosen for them by their parents in how they treat them and interact with them?Harry Hindu

    I believe I already addressed this. Gender is a social construct so it is the interplay of "being born" with the tendency towards being confused about your gender and the environment influencing them. It's a choice because they could choose let it bother them or not. I don't think most people consciously choose it anyways. Most just "go with it" based on the influences of their parents and those around them. So I'm not sure if there is a real distinction to be made. When you feel like a "women" but you are sexually a man that is when you see an issue. That feeling comes from looking at the gender expectations and feeling like you "fit" into to that better.
  • yatagarasu
    72

    What evidence is this if you don't mind me asking? It would be interesting to have a look over that.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    This is a twin study about trans twins that are dizygotic vs monozygotic twins.
    http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html

    A study that compared human stria terminalis neuron count in trans individuals vs cis individuals. Chung, WC; De Vries, GJ; Swaab, DF (2002). "Sexual differentiation of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in humans may extend into adulthood". Journal of Neuroscience. 22 (3): 1027–33.

    Follow up study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X06001462?via%3Dihub

    Another follow up study to the first https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590400018231

    There are a bunch more. Interesting stuff. Pretty dense though. And that is from someone that is actually in the field. : / Which leads me to think that this makes conversation impossible because most can't be bothered to actual look through the material. Thankfully most of it isn't put behind a paywall... Let me know what you think. All I know is that hormones are a POWERFUL thing.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    if it’s dense i doubt i’ll Have the time to read through it till after my exams but I will certainly come back to them. Can you summarize them? What field do you work in if you don’t mind me asking?
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    This view on "essence" might be false, but it isn't a somatic delusion.Michael

    Somatic: An individual believes that he or she is experiencing physical sensations or bodily dysfunctions, such as foul odors or insects crawling on or under the skin, or is suffering from a general medical condition or defect.
    - https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/delusional-disorder

    Somatic type: delusions that the person has some physical defect or general medical condition
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

    Does the transgender find themselves suffering from a physical defect? If not, then why do they attempt to change themselves physically, by going to a physician, to feel "better"?

    A better example would be believing that you are Elvis reincarnated and you dress and behave like him. You even go have a sex change (if you were a woman) and plastic surgery to look like him. When people try to tell you that you might be taking this to far, you berate them for being trans-Elvis-phobes.
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Does the transgender find themselves suffering from a physical defect?Harry Hindu

    No. The issue is one of incongruence between their gender identity and their biological sex, not in believing that they have some illness or physical defect. You're just taking advantage of ambiguous language. Transgenderism isn't the sort of condition that psychiatrists are talking about when they talk about somatic delusions.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866


    Is the Cis-gendered experience equivalent to the trans or non-binary gendered experience?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Sorry Michael I would be interested to hear your response to my comment. Don’t mean to push it on you I’m just enjoying engagement with you.
  • Count Radetzky von Radetz
    28
    the sources which you have mentioned don’t seem to link to each other and each has a considerable amount of personal bias towards the “CIS gender” side.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    You're just taking advantage of ambiguous languageMichael

    Can that statement not be equally said to you? If you admit it’s ambiguous then why should it be taken your particular way? But if you do respond to the above question I think I can prove to you logically that it’s at least a delusion, regardless of whether or not you want to refer to it as somatic. Although your rejections of @Harry Hindu comments don’t seem to cut the mark.

    The issue is one of incongruence between their gender identity and their biological sex, not in believing that they have some illness or physical defect.Michael

    Biological sex is the physical body, and if they say they have the wrong body, then that is a defect, as it ‘should’ be otherwise.

    A defect is defined as a shortcoming, and imperfection or a lack, and so a physical defect is the lack of something that ought to be.

    Therefore, by saying you have the wrong body, you are claiming that you lack the right body, the current body is imperfect (as the right body would be more perfect as it would match the gender identity). The statement you use to refute harry’s claim is equivalent to the statement you are refuting.

    It’s like saying ‘no he’s not really thirsty, he’s just dehydrating’.

    It seems as though you are playing around with the ambiguity of words more than anyone else here.
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Biological sex is the physical body, and if they say they have the wrong body, then that is a defect, as it ‘should’ be otherwise.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    That's where you're stretching the definition. That's not what psychiatrists mean by "defect". By "defect" they mean something like a mole being a harbinger of cancer, or parasites infecting the body, or being overweight. No amount of equivocating on the word "wrong" is going to change that.

    It seems as though you are playing around with the ambiguity of words more than anyone else here.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    I'm really not.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    866
    That's where you're stretching the definition. That's not what psychiatrists mean by "defect". By "defect" they mean something like a mole being a harbinger of cancer, or parasites infecting the body, or being overweight. No amount of equivocating on the word "wrong" is going to change that.Michael

    That’s not true, psychiatrists also talk about neural defects etc and so it’s not limited the way you are suggesting it is and there is no reason (and I would argue no evidence) to suggest that it should be limited to the specifics you are pointing out.

    .
    I'm really not.Michael

    You really are. You’re limiting a words use to fit your argument when the word has more use than you are allowing it to have. By defect they do mean the specific things you have mentioned, but they also mean a number of other things, like I mentioned, neural defects, behavioral defects, defective beliefs etc etc etc. there are plenty examples to show that you are being incredibly crafty (it would seem unknownibgly since you come across very genuine and not at all intentionally crafty) with the way you are using words and limiting their use to match the specific argument you are putting across, but when put under scrutiny it falls apart.

    You cannot hold your very limited specific definition of ‘defect’. And you still haven’t confronted the most important question I have asked (avoidance of something potentially crippling to your argument?)

    Is the cis gendered experience equivalent to be the trans gendered experience?
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Is the cis gendered experience equivalent to be the trans gendered experience?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    I have no idea what this question means.

    You really are. You’re limiting a words use to fit your argument when the word has more use than you are allowing it to have. By defect they do mean the specific things you have mentioned, but they also mean a number of other things, like I mentioned, neural defects, behavioral defects, defective beliefs etc etc etc.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    In the context of the medical diagnosis of somatic delusion, by "defect" they aren't referring to the sort of thing where someone believes that they were born in the "wrong" body. They're referring to the sort of thing where someone (unresonably) believes that the normal functioning of the body they actually have is impaired in some way.
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