• BlueBanana
    840
    Disturbance in the way in which one's body weight or shape is experienced, undue influence of body weight or shape on self-evaluation, or denial of the seriousness of the current low body weight.Harry Hindu

    Um... thanks for repeating?

    Whether or not humans cannot be claimed to be entirely natural anymore is a point of contention for another thread.Harry Hindu

    No it's not if you bring it up to back up your point. You can't make a claim and then claim I'm off-topic and should make a new thread when I refute it.

    why not? what else are we? Super-natural?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Is technology supernatural?

    if they aren't independent events that implies they are causally related then?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Sharks aren't ice cream trucks in disguises. That's a possible explanation, and the gender roles as social constructions are another one.
  • Bitter Crank
    5.8k
    Opinions can be changed, but a person can't just decide to change their own opinion.BlueBanana

    We can't decide to "want to change", but we can "want to change" and we can change. This idea supposed that we don't initiate our feelings -- we don't 'decide' to feel something. We just start feeling it, then we have to call it something.

    I have changed my opinion about transgenderism. I used to think it was real. In the last couple of years I started to doubt that it was real and began thinking it was probably delusional. I didn't decide that I wanted to change my opinion. What I decided was not to trust the testimony of transgendered people about their experiences.

    Whether the decision to distrust testimony was voluntary, I don't know.
  • Cabbage Farmer
    157
    A bit disingenuous to say 'some'. lolMr Phil O'Sophy
    Perhaps you're not familiar with the use of the word "some" in elementary logic. That's the sense of the word I intended, and the sense I often intend when I use that word.

    Perhaps you're using the word "disingenuous" in a way I'm not accustomed to. I assure you I meant what I said in earnest.

    Its pretty much 99% of the worlds population that have coinciding gender and sex. that would suggest a pretty good correlation between the two.Mr Phil O'Sophy
    Do you have a citation to support that rather precise statistical claim?

    I agree it seems a vast majority. What does that have to do with the points I've made? So far as I can see it's a conceptually irrelevant bit of emphasis.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    No it's not if you bring it up to back up your point. You can't make a claim and then claim I'm off-topic and should make a new thread when I refute it.BlueBanana

    I did - in the sentence after the one you quoted.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    So body dysmorphia is when you think your body is other than it really is whereas sex dysmorphia is when you think your body should be other than it really is.Michael
    Then it comes down to my question of how they know that their body is something other than it should be. How do they know what the opposite of sex feels like to say that their body should be like that?
  • BlueBanana
    840
    I did - in the sentence after the one you quoted.Harry Hindu

    Read that part of this discussion again.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    888
    Do you have a citation to support that rather precise statistical claim?Cabbage Farmer

    Correct me if i’m Wrong (and that’s perfectly possible) but I think the US is like one of the leading places in terms of making it a comfortable place for people identifying as transgender and they have around 0.6% of their population that fall into this category.

    http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf

    Taken from this article.
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.html?referer=https://www.google.co.uk/

    I find it hard to believe (but if someone could prove me wrong that would great) that the world average would be more than double that of the USA. So I thought it a more than generous figure to give 1% looking at the data for countries that are very open to it.

    So I would say some people are transgender. Most people are not.

    Rounding something up to a whole number when dealing with a world population of billions is hardly a precise statistical claim.
  • yatagarasu
    72


    I have changed my opinion about transgenderism. I used to think it was real. In the last couple of years I started to doubt that it was real and began thinking it was probably delusional. I didn't decide that I wanted to change my opinion. What I decided was not to trust the testimony of transgendered people about their experiences.Bitter Crank

    It is definitely "real" in the sense that there are people that think they are not expressing their personalities through the gender they are currently. There is also enough evidence to suggest they are "born with it". I still don't know why it matters if they want to be a man if they were women. Gender is a social construct anyways. Sex is a different story all together.
  • Bitter Crank
    5.8k
    It is definitely "real" in the sense that there are people that think they are not expressing their personalities through the gender they are currently. There is also enough evidence to suggest they are "born with it".yatagarasu

    I agree that people who claim to be transgendered are quite sincere in their belief that something is amiss with their personal identity and sexual self image. I don't think they are cynically making it up. However, the explanation they have settled upon is not necessarily true. They very well may be born with whatever problem it is that they have, but their gender being misidentified may not be the real problem.

    All that I can say for sure, based on what I have observed among transgendered people I have known, is that they want to live a different kind of life. Changing one's official gender, wearing different clothing, getting a new name, and changing one's appearance is a way of living a different kind of life. The means at hand (changing gender) may solve a real problem, but maybe doesn't solve the possibly non-existent stated problem (of gender)>

    I would liked to have lived a different kind of life too. Changing my gender, as it happened, wouldn't have accomplished anything for me, but I can understand the intense desire TO BE SOMEBODY ELSE. In the long run, I don't think this is a healthy solution. Changing the person one is can be very healthy; becoming someone else may not be healthy.

    If transgendered people are totally wrong about what ails them, that doesn't mean that they should be scorned or abused. They clearly have a real enough problem, and it shouldn't be judged harshly. On the other hand, we are not obligated to take their interpretation as the literal truth of the matter.

    I defer to transgendered people as to how they wish to be addressed (up to a point) and i am not embarrassed to be seen in public with them, even if they look perfectly ridiculous (which some do early in their new practice). I also won't tell them they are quite deluded, whatever I think. I'm not their therapist and don't have that kind of relationship with any transgendered.
  • yatagarasu
    72


    Good points. Don't really have any contentions with what you said. But I would like to add that, the issue is that the prejudice against them is probably a good percent of the issues they have psychologically. If the counter movement weren't so malicious it would be much easier to get to core of everything. Like I said in a previous post, I think that making the issue about gender doesn't really change anything (like you said as well), and that I don't care for the idea of gender. Sexual dimorphism is different but the idea of gender and the expectations that come with identifying as a particular one is complete nonsense to me.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    I did - in the sentence after the one you quoted. — Harry Hindu

    Read that part of this discussion again.
    BlueBanana
    Huh? I'm willing to have whatever conversation you want - anywhere - at least until the mods start deleting posts for being off-topic (like they have deleted mine for being off-topic). You just need to make more sense.

    Here is the sentence I was referring to:
    Every species has a specialty that enables it to survive in unique ways.Harry Hindu
    My point was that you are engaging in anthropomorphism by claiming that humans are somehow special or separate from nature because of their physiology (big brain) and behavior (which their big brain drives). Humans are just as natural as everything else in the universe. If the universe itself is natural, then how is it that one of its constituents isn't?
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    So body dysmorphia is when you think your body is other than it really is whereas sex dysmorphia is when you think your body should be other than it really is.Michael
    With more time to think on it. It really isn't any different. They both believe that something is wrong with their body, which falls under the umbrella of a somatic delusion.

    There is also enough evidence to suggest they are "born with it".yatagarasu
    People are born with mental disorders. I also mentioned that it has to do with how they were raised. Is there a study on trans people and how they were raised, like how their parents treated them as they developed (cross-dressing them, etc.). And at what point does a child actually choose his gender as opposed to it being chosen for them by their parents in how they treat them and interact with them?
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    888
    There is also enough evidence to suggest they are "born with it"yatagarasu

    What evidence is this if you don't mind me asking? It would be interesting to have a look over that.
  • Michael
    6.5k
    With more time to think on it. It really isn't any different. They both believe that something is wrong with their body, which falls under the umbrella of a somatic delusion.Harry Hindu

    A somatic delusion is where you think that your body has certain (abnormal) characteristics that it doesn't actually have. This isn't the case for the transgender person (unless they also have a somatic delusion). The transgender person (where they believe that they were born in the "wrong" body) believes in something like (for the male-to-female transexuals) the feminine essence concept of transsexuality. They believe that they have a female mind, spirit, soul, or personality, and that this kind of mind, spirit, soul, or personality "belongs" in a female body.

    This view on "essence" might be false, but it isn't a somatic delusion.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    Believing that you belong to another body is saying that your body is wrong.
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Believing that you belong to another body is saying that your body is wrong.Harry Hindu

    But it's not to have a somatic delusion. You're stretching the psychiatric definition, given the ambiguous language in saying that one's body is wrong.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    Do transgenders have a problem with their hair color, eye color, skin color, etc.? Is it only their sex organs? It's not that they want to belong to a different body. It's that they want to have different sex organs.
  • Michael
    6.5k
    It's not that they want to belong to a different body. It's that they want to have different sex organs.Harry Hindu

    I know. But that's not a somatic delusion. A somatic delusion is where you wrongly think that your body is infested with parasites, or that you're overweight when you're actually underweight.

    It would be a somatic delusion if someone with male genitalia actually believes that they have female genitalia, and so wrongly considers themselves a cisgender woman. But that's not how it is for the transgender person.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    Then they are confusing their mental state and/or behavior and their sex. Again, how do they know what it feels like to be the opposite sex?
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Then they are confusing their mental state and/or behavior and their sex.Harry Hindu

    Nobody confuses their mental state and/or behaviour with their genitals.
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