• T Clark
    2.8k
    If one signs up for a dating site and lists their interest to be in heterosexual males, not homosexual males and not females, is that listing preferences or is it setting up a profile of what you are looking for?ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Does your husband know you've signed up for a dating site?
  • T Clark
    2.8k
    The recent case of the black guys getting arrested for (allegedly) loitering at a Starbucks is a case in point. Racism may very well have played a role in that event, I wouldn't dismiss the (strong) possibility, but it may not have. There are a number of possibilities other than racism which could explain the motivation of the worker to call the police and have the guys removed: maybe she was just having a bad day and took out her anger on these guys (this displaced anger happens to almost all of us on occasion, especially those of us in the service industry); maybe it was that specific location's policy to refuse bathroom service to all non-paying customers and to force them to either make a purchase or leave; etc. We just don't know all the relevant facts, and imo the most honest thing to do in those situations is to suspend judgement. I took a lot of grief from my more progressive friends for holding this position, as most of them refused to even entertain the possibility that there could be another explanation for the worker's actions.Erik

    I've gone back through all the posts on this subject. I wasn't going to post because these discussions never seem particularly fruitful on the forum e.g. Baden vs. Thorongil. I've decided to because I think, unless I missed it, there's something being left out, at least in relation to the United States. We'll start with anecdotal evidence. I'm 66 years old. I've met and talked with, lived with, many people. In my experience, white people as a group don't like, respect, or trust black people. They don't feel comfortable with them. They are afraid of them. I often feel the same impulses in myself. Most of the time, at least in the crowd I hang around with, it isn't overt. My friends have good hearts. If you talk to my black friends and try to deny it, they will laugh at you, ridicule you, scorn you.

    All the discussions here are over-intellectualizing the issue. People tooting their own self-righteous horns. For most people, this isn't a conscious attitude. It doesn't matter whether or not you call people "racist." I haven't found that to be a very useful term. It just shuts things down and gives people justification for ignoring you. Most of the things being called "racism" here come directly from the attitudes I'm referring to. Many of the others come from people's defensive reactions to being accused.

    So, that's anecdote. Now to statistics. Go to Google. Type in "Studies reaction black vs white faces." Study after study. With babies for God's sake. Even black people.
  • Hanover
    3.4k
    If one signs up for a dating site and lists their interest to be in heterosexual males, not homosexual males and not females, is that listing preferences or is it setting up a profile of what you are looking for?ArguingWAristotleTiff

    The typical way those sites are set up is that straight women must start out dating women and if they do ok, they will then be permitted to date gay men. From there it's on to unemployed men, and from there it's to normal men. If you date someone wrong along the way, you might get dropped down to unemployed bald gay men. That happened to me once.
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    The last few pages haven't been surprising at all. People don't have straight what I said or what I was responding to at all. I'm glad I didn't descend into that particular circle of hell. Because Erik responded to me, I wanted to let people know that I PMed him, as promised. He can be the judge of whether my response adequately addressed his claims, but at least I won't be berated in doing so.

    There will be no more political fracas from me with certain members here, so don't expect them. I come to this forum to alleviate, not add to, my boredom.
  • Baden
    4.8k


    Speaking of boredom, I'm sure everybody is getting bored of your attempts to save face (with more likely to follow this post). You make direct contentions, can't back them up and then hide behind the idea that you are being victimized/misunderstood while refusing to explain how. That's fine, please do stick to PMs, but this is a public forum where open debate is supposed to occur and the idea that the actual presentation of evidence over a couple of pages of debate concerning issues you freely decided to comment on is "a circle of hell" is a statement that could only be made by someone in their own circle of hell of irrationality. So, yes, stay there, but don't bother with posts advertising your inability to get involved in open and rational empirical-based debate as if it was some kind of virtue. If you are afraid to be berated, it's because your position is unsupportable. You simply have had one of your statements proven to be wrong by actual bona-fide evidence and you can't handle it. So, in future if you want to have a private conversation with Erik or anyone else, don't start it in public or other posters will obviously respond and expect you to back up your claims.
  • Baden
    4.8k
    The recent case of the black guys getting arrested for (allegedly) loitering at a Starbucks is a case in point. Racism may very well have played a role in that event, I wouldn't dismiss the (strong) possibility, but it may not have...We just don't know all the relevant facts, and imo the most honest thing to do in those situations is to suspend judgement. I took a lot of grief from my more progressive friends for holding this position, as most of them refused to even entertain the possibility that there could be another explanation for the worker's actions.Erik

    I think you're right. This is the flip side of the existence-of-racism coin, the prejudice towards over-explaining events in terms of racism. I think the facts are worth getting at but I also think the company was more worried about its image in its response than the actual facts. I haven't researched the event, so I don't know either. Maybe someone has and can enlighten us. I'm not convinced there is no definitive answer to be found.
  • Baden
    4.8k
    All the discussions here are over-intellectualizing the issue. People tooting their own self-righteous horns. For most people, this isn't a conscious attitude. It doesn't matter whether or not you call people "racist."T Clark

    The point of intellectualizing the issue is to get away from the name-calling and just look at the facts, the cold hard data. That way at least you have some solid foundation to work on. And I don't think anyone directly involved in the debate we just had is racist anyway. Also, I think looking at inequality and how to alleviate it whether it be in terms of race or class is a better approach than berating people for being racist or whatever. As you said, we're all to some degree tarred with that brush. It's inbuilt.
  • T Clark
    2.8k
    The point of intellectualizing the issue is to get away from the name-calling and just look at the facts, the cold hard data. That way at least you have some solid foundation to work on.Baden

    I don't have any problem with that approach, but those types of facts often just get used as bludgeons. They can also be twisted and rationalized. There's no way to rationalize the feelings white people in the US have for black people. They are bare, and stark, and ugly.
  • Baden
    4.8k


    Fair point. I still think you need reliable data as a basis for any reasonable conversation but then keeping that reasonable can also be a challenge.
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    There's no way to rationalize the feelings white people in the US have for black people. They are bare, and stark, and ugly.T Clark

    Speak for yourself, bigot.
  • frank
    566
    What's your viewpoint?
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    open debateBaden

    Nothing of the kind occurs with you and your buddies. It's a waste of time.

    concerning issues you freely decided to comment onBaden

    And now I'm telling you that I'm going to stop doing that.

    If you are afraid to be berated, it's because your position is unsupportable. You simply have had one of your statements proven to be wrong by actual bona-fide evidence and you can't handle it.Baden

    So you would like to think. :rofl:
  • Baden
    4.8k


    Speak for yourself, bigot.Thorongil

    This says all anyone needs to know about your level of "debate".
  • Baden
    4.8k
    And now I'm telling you that I'm going to stop doing that.Thorongil

    Right, fine. Let's call it a day. My main objection was always your approach anyway not your views as such or you personally.
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    Yes, please let's.
  • T Clark
    2.8k
    Speak for yourself, bigot.Thorongil

    Four possibilities:
      [1] You are lying to hide your true feelings.
      [2] You are unaware of your true feelings.
      [3] Your life experiences are outside the mainstream.
      [4] You are an enlightened soul.

    I'd vote for 2 or 3 in your case, although I admit my guess is based on little specific experience. And don't call me "Shirley."
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    Psychoanalysis is fun, ain't it? Two can play at that game, but I'll be the better man and refuse.
  • T Clark
    2.8k
    Psychoanalysis is fun, ain't it? Two can play at that game, but I'll be the better man and refuse.Thorongil

    I may not be better than you, but I'm better than @Baden, so I'm ready to stop if you are. :snicker:
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