Hello Tobias! You can't imagine how happy your post made me feel. It was a good start this morning, Sunday.

There is a lot to talk about, but I appreciate an important thing: you actually visited my country with your parents in that period of time, so you experienced how Spain was in the first years after Franco's death. Therefore, your opinion and points are objective and well taken. Also, I like how you talk very fondly about your summertime. It could be a topic for a short story! :cool:

My point in this thread was exactly what you summarised in your post. I wanted to know if we had an improvement here, because it is very difficult to talk about Franco here, as you could imagine. It is still a taboo topic. I believe Spain has changed a lot over the past 50 years, but the incumbent government uses a florid message. We are still a country with low wages, and there are issues regarding our democracy. We are not perfect. But I wanted to know if we could sit at the same table as other nations like the Netherlands or France. After reading your post, I think yes, we can.

I didn't want to be nostalgic in my post, I promise. Every Spaniard knows perfectly the situation of our country, and we know that we don't have influence worldwide. For example, we tried to recognise Palestine as a state nation, and nobody cared, etc. But none of us want to be like Germany or France. We know we are particular, and we are happy with that. Yet a large number of us think that we are the "shithole" of Europe. For example: I was in Bratislava once, and a person asked me, "Where are you from?" And then I replied, "I am from Spain!" And she wondered if I was really able to keep a conversation in English because we are very poor regarding English skills and educational matters. You can't imagine how this hurts our pride...

We always compare ourselves to North European nations and wonder why we are not like you. But this is a utopia. It is impossible because our idiosyncrasies are different.

I think 2017 was crucial for modern Spain. I am talking about our crisis regarding Catalonia. I was in the university in that period of time and most of us thought that the rest of EU members would rant on us. We also carry the prejudice of being a repressive nation, you know. But I was surprised that EU members respected our sovereignty and decided that it was better to solve the issue in our own way. 8 years later is no longer a problem, and blood has not been shed. I think this was a good example that we are a European-respected nation, with our pros and cons absolutely. I wish we could fix our low wages and unemployment ratio one day.

A very intelligent and well-written answer. I’m sorry—it’s true that discussing Franco is very difficult (and, I admit, even uninteresting). Honestly, I expected you to provide insightful responses, and I was right. I remember when we talked in the Hispanidad thread. It was a fruitful discussion.

I give up—Hispanic matters are not something Anglos seem to care about. They will never make an effort to understand us. I think it would have been more effective to address this topic in your thread about Hispanidad.

Fair enough. I understand what you meant, so don't worry. I'm just a bit disappointed because, after reading many of your posts, I thought you were more open-minded on certain issues. That's all. I don't want to offend you either.

You criticize me for having the Inquisition and 'Islamic culture' in my history, yet you find it acceptable to have nuked Japan twice. Americans are very hard to understand...

Interesting and I feel the vibe of the song. Also, I guess you thought in bulls when Spain crossed to your mind, but I could be misunderstood!

Spain has always struck me as a more rigid repressive society than other places in Europe. I think that’s partly because of its history of Islamic culture and partly because of Franco and Spanish Civil War. And then there is the Spanish inquisition, which none of us expect. — T Clark

Don't worry, I didn't expect positive comments towards my country when I started this thread, but I thought it was worth starting it anyway.

My point was to see if you had negative prejudices towards my country. Sadly, I was right about what I thought. I asked if modern Spain could be considered a democracy, and you didn't address that question but only posted bad and stereotypical comments. 

What comes to my mind is the stereotypical cultural studies student, who is fascinated about cultures and traditions of all people except his or her own. — ssu

I understand you now. Yes, the hypocrisy we are used to hearing from some university faculties.

They are not at all laughing at him, but smiling and in the following video you can see people clapping their hands. — ssu

Ah! Sorry, my bad. The picture tricked me because I interpreted they were laughing at him...

And especially since Yukio hadn't himself served... — ssu

But Mishima didn't serve because the bureaucracy didn't allow him to. He did the checking in a random army post in a small town in central Japan, and they rejected him because he wasn't strong enough and he was ill. Furthermore, it seems that his father set up everything with the aim of avoiding his son being selected to the Imperial Army. They were a rich family, and his father recommended him to study and obtain better positions in society. But that trauma of being rejected to fight for your country was in Mishima's mind the rest of his life. He wished to be a kamikaze, but his destiny resulted in him being one of the best writers in the Japanese language ever.

Weren't you Spanish? I think that you will find it in your history too. — ssu

No way! Not even close to the average Japanese politician.

Those values that I referred to previously are very important today. Remember Naoto Kan? The Prime Minister incumbent when the Fukushima disaster happened? Well, he resigned because he admitted that he and his cabinet didn't manage the crisis well. It is impossible to see that here...

Think about. What would we think about a writer that would be an ardent patriot like Mishima if he would be German? He would be the jingoist ultra-nationalist and people would just try to find hints of nazism, white supremacy and racism in his writings. How would a German who would favour Prussian militarism look like today? — ssu

Yes, I agree. He would be heavily criticised, and his works would suffer a bit of censorship, or at least he would be sued and seated in a trial. Yet I think there are some differences between the Mishima we already know and the hypothetical German writer who would have looked like Mishima. The first always rooted for values that are very hard to be understood in the Western world, while the second spread a sense of supremacy around the world. Yes, I know Japan had imperialistic views towards Korea and China, but according to Mishima, that's just politics, and he wanted to focus on the spirit of the nation, and (again) Japan is intrinsically violent, although they promoted actions of peace since the 1945 debacle.

Above all, remember how the Japanese soldiers of the new Self-Defence forces reacted to Mishima. They started to hiss and jeer. — ssu

A very good point, ssu. Honestly, after reading biographies on Mishima's life, I think he had never expected such a reaction from the Self-Defence Forces. I also think that it was suspended by a thread: if he gained the respect of military forces, Mishima would have won hope in Japan otherwise. Otherwise, it would have a perfect cause for committing suicide since he would no longer believe in a modern Japanese society. Better or worse, it happened the latter...

But it doesn't matter if it's scenario A or B. He always had death in his mind, because it was the purest possible situation to him.

just like the story of the last Hiro Onoda, the last Japanese soldier to surrender in the Phillipines in 1974. Well, he too was disappointed about post-WW2 when he finally got back to Japan.

Hiro Onoda surrendering in 1974. — ssu

Yes, I read some articles on Onoda. Look how the people are laughing at him and his katana. Did the Japanese really deserve that disrespect? :roll:

I wonder what Mishima would have written about Onoda — ssu

Yeah! I wonder that too! I guess he would have written a novel like Runaway Horses but changing the plot and focusing on Mr. Onoda.

Damn! I have always missed that pure loyalist behaviour that the useless politicians of my country don't have...

we don't have this instant recoil that we would have if Mishima would have been a German, an Englishman or an American. This tells something about us, not of the Japanese or their culture. — ssu

ssu, I don't follow you in that quote. What do you mean by "instant recoil" if Mishima would have been German instead of Japanese?

Japan has always been a warfare nation. Until 1861, when Japan started to get 'modernised,' thus having contact with Western nations, it was very common to have guerrillas and bloodbaths amongst samurai. Consider that one of the main points of Bushidō principles is to die with honour in the field rather than run away like rabbits. Mishima got disappointed with the Emperor and the current ministers of Japan in the post-WWII era because they decided to end everything, not only accepting the loss of the war but also how "backwards" the Japanese values were. Since then, Mishima, amongst others, started with a romanticism of old days, when they used katana instead of a pistol or they wore yukata instead of suits. Is that nationalism or a defence of your roots and values? Well, Mishima was in that dilemma the rest of his life.

Oh, and Japan is a very nationalistic country nowadays with its lobby running party called Nippon Kaigi.

which includes an in-the-moment appreciation of beauty, sort of like being lucky to be there in the moment? — Dawnstorm

Yes, exactly. But rather than being lucky, it is a sense of redemption. He—Mishima—thought it was possible to build things with the art of destroying them. Consider this: thanks to setting the temple on fire, it became a legendary building in Japan.

I'm hardly an expert in Japanese culture, but I'm certainly not used to have this concept be accompanied by such violent language. I'd guess it's an expression of passion? — Dawnstorm

Passion? Hmm... good. I think it is a correct adjective of what Mishima had in mind when he wrote his works. We have to understand that Mishima was very fond of Samurai culture and values, and the latter is intrinsically violent. One of Mishima's traumas was not having the chance to fight in WWII, because he thought it would be priceless to die defending the honour of his homeland. Since then, he always had a fetish for war and bellicose topics. Too much passion on him?

I believe he used language that was pure and sophisticated rather than violent. He published his final novel on the same day he committed suicide. Mishima was that type of genius...

I try to make an effort in reading books in both languages, although I mostly read in Spanish.

John Cheever is one of the authors that I only read in English. I don't think I've ever attempted to read one of his translated works. His novels are very well written and easy to follow for a non-native like me. I tend to buy his books from an Irish bookshop called "Kennys," but I remember purchasing one book from a random bookshop located in the USA. It took me about a month to receive it.

Morning and Evening by Jon Fosse.

Fosse's talented narrative grasps our attention in this short but intense novella. The first four pages are about the birth of a child in a random coastal village, and then the same child becomes an elder remembering the old days fishing with his dad.

Melancholia, nostalgia, memories... all I love in literature.

Sorry, Tom. I didn't put context in the quotes. That specific one refers to a novella called The Temple of the Golden Pavilion.

The plot is about a young monk with suicidal and pessimistic temptations but with a clear vision of what is beautiful or sublime. He is named to learn Buddhist scriptures in a temple all coloured in gold and with a gorgeous garden. It is so beautiful that he even thought being there is the only reason for keeping living. Also, there are interesting debates in the book about what beauty or ugliness is; one character has a deformity, and he is called "flat feet," but he is very talented at flirting with girls, not like the monk, who opts to lose his virginity paying a prostitute; he finds sublimity in death rather than in pleasures, etc.

Nonetheless, one of his best friends at the temple kills himself without an apparent reason, and the protagonist starts in a madness looking for a good reason to end up with his life, not like his friend. Surprisingly, he came to the conclusion that beauty and death can be together, so he plans to burn the temple with himself inside. That's why the quote says: True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.

When the temple is set on fire, he actually didn't feel bad. He came to this conclusion: Everything that is truly beautiful has an end because if it lasts forever we would have the risk of getting tired of contemplating that beauty...

Happy 100th birthday, sensei! :party:

It has been a while since the last time I read books of Mishima, but they are always in my mind.

Confessions of a Mask; The Temple of the Golden Pavilion; After the Banquet; The Age of Blue...

I feel a bit nostalgic. I remember Mishima was the main point of my first threads when I joined TPF years ago...

True beauty is something that attacks, overpowers, robs, and finally destroys.

:fire:

Perfect purity is possible if you turn your life into a line of poetry written with a splash of blood.

:sparkle:

I still have no way to survive but to keep writing one line, one more line, one more line...

:broken:

In the seventh priority, Liberal Party claims:

Labor’s approach to national security is weak, as shown by cuts to important defence spending (now under 2 per cent of GDP) and the significant shift in Australia’s foreign policy position towards our ally Israel.

We also waste 2 percent of GDP in defence spending, and I already consider it pretty high. I think it is a waste of money and resources if the digit is above two, but Trump will probably threaten all NATO countries to increase it.

Also, they say in the pamphlet: our ally Israel... mate. :death:

You seem to be hopeless regarding the situation of Georgia and Ivanishvili; it is understandable if we look at the precedents of ex-Soviet republics. But I think it is not useless to debate the fate of that oligarch. Maybe my prediction that he would be the next domino tile falling is a bit risky, but no one is safe in his position in this continuously changing world. We will see what happens, and we will discuss it in this thread. :smile:

Ivanishvili hasn't been and won't be the only oligarch who is booted out.

Since there is also a thread about Syria and al-Assad, I can't see the inconvenience of talking about another rich puppet and his eventual fall from power. There is a lot of pressure on Georgia at the moment, and we should not discard that Ivanishvili might be the next domino tile falling.

Also, Georgian people deserve our care and attention. They are struggling to get a future closer to the European Union. We should not ignore them.

Good points.

I think the indigenous people of Spain were the Iberians, and now my DNA is a mix of Romans, Visigoths, Moors, and other random people in the old settlements in North Africa. I am cool with that.

Yes, we belong to the same place: the earth. But I think it is relevant to the soil where you were born. At least I believe I would be completely different if I were born in the middle of Australia instead of Southwestern Europe, although both places are in the same spot* of the vast universe.

* Approximate dimensions.

The bastards will have to negotiate. — Banno

Well, but I think that's a good thing after all. Politics should be the practice of negotiating with the aim of getting agreements done. It will be interesting to see that proportional difference between the Senate and Congress; most of the EU zone countries work in such a way. All of them have coalition governments. It is not appropriate to have a supermajority because it doesn't really represent people.

this is an example of what I think about when I think about Oceanic Continentalism: — Arcane Sandwich

Do you root for some kind of indigenismo politics?

Wait a minute, in the context of science as well as the world of lawyers, evidence does indeed constitute proof if certain conditions are met. Or do you disagree with that? — Arcane Sandwich

Absolutely. I work at the Land Registry, and I provide a lot of evidence and facts in countless land trials every month. But I thought we were in a different context: an interesting discussion between two online friends and not in a court discussing in front of a judge. :smile:

But I don't think that there's an "elite mafia" running the world. We (as in, the people who are not part of the criminal world) would have destroyed them by now. Or do you disagree with that? — Arcane Sandwich

Hmm... Good point. It is not worthy to be sceptical and suspicious. But I wasn't referring to a mafia elite either. I don't claim they use bad practices to influence politics, but I do think they have power in some manner. I guess, in modern times, a phone call by a person that I believe is important is more relevant than a shot. Now that we are in a thread called 'Australian politics,' it comes to my mind who was the person who proposed to bring Eucalyptus from Australia because it is evident that Franco was limited intellectually. Well, that's the kind of powerful hidden folks that I am thinking of.

Ok. Is there at least one example? One person that belongs to that group? — Arcane Sandwich

A few months ago there was an interesting conflict in the port of Murcia. A ship from a country (Germany, if I am not mistaken), supposedly holding weapons and missiles for Israel, was about to dock in the named port. Yet the notice was quickly spread around like dust, and it ended up in court.

Who was the one who knew about the boat?
How did he know the boat had weapons?
Who pulled the strings in that case? :smile:

It is obvious that those people are not pulling the strings because since I said some do it in the "dark" it means that there are people who are hidden, but they hold an important size of power. That's the point. It is more relevant to them to use puppets to rule on. I never claimed they are evil. I just pointed out his relevance.
Do I have evidence? No. Does evidence prove everything? No. Since the premise is that some folks rule the politics hidden by the leaves it would be contradictory to say I can mask them off. It is OK if you think I am in denial. But they are there, whether you accept their existence or not.

What evidence do we have that there are people doing that (pulling the strings in the dark)? Isn't that just a conspiracy theory? — Arcane Sandwich

The people who pull the strings in the dark don't play dice. :wink:

I mean, where do you place the Royalty and the nobility in that analysis? Are they "the people"? Are they "the enterprises"? — Arcane Sandwich

The people vs bourgeois. A classic match in European societies. I can't think of a country that is the exception to the rule. It has been the same power struggle since the 19th century. Back in the day, the people called "nobleman" to mates who looked like Elon Musk in our modern era. No doubt about that!

Where would one place the Pope in the classic battle between people and enterprises? — Arcane Sandwich

They are not even related or connected to the same struggle which is the extension and limitations of the rule of the capital. What is the rule of the Pope on increasing the income or monopolising the market? None. Well, yes, back in the day he used to fund wars. But that was a long time ago.

Where would one place religions like Hinduism or Buddhism in the "we and them, masses and the elite" battle? — Arcane Sandwich

Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. Is another expression of masses themselves...
.

All I'm saying is that the reality of politics cannot be reduced to the "mass vs the elite" battle, IMHO. I mean, some musicians (i.e., the Rolling Stones) and some athletes (i.e., Lionel Messi) are millionaires. Does that automatically turn them into oppressors of the poor? I don't think so. — Arcane Sandwich

It is obvious that Messi and the Rolling Stones are not part of the elite although they are rich.

Elites are the unknown persons who pull the strings in the dark with the aim of protecting the advantages of their privilege.

Yeah, good brief summary, Kazan. :up:

I guess most social democrats went from Marxism or communism to a modern socialist perspective. Some of them no longer call themselves 'socialists' but 'social democrats.'
That wave started in the Nordic countries around the 1960s or 1970s and spread all over the world, with the only exception of the U.S.A. (because they don't know what social democracy is.)

citizens government ownership economics set in a democratic political state. — kazan

Yeah, exactly. The classic battle between people and enterprises; we and them; the mass and the elite. Ah, beautiful. Isn't it? Imagine your country never experienced some of those historical features. We can be proud of being Europeans or Australians too!

Age, property and god are conservative, while the educated tend to the left. — Banno

It was expected, as well as most countries of the EU zone. Most of the greens are also leaning to the left here. It is understandable since traditional conservatives lean toward reactionary political parties that deny climate change and even blame social democrats for a fire or floods.

Australians do have a preference for socialist policy, quite a difference to the US. — Banno

Because socialist or leftist policies do exist in AU. Although Elon Musk is continuing to show his dementia, socialism per se never existed there. They never had a 'labour' party like in the UK or AU; neither did they have social democrats like in Sweden, Spain, Portugal, or Germany.

Pretty! It seems to be a quiet and cosy place. If I am not mistaken, those are the famous eucalyptus, right? The tree that shouldn't be disregarded in Australian politics! :cool:

:up:

Very informative and helpful, the distinction between bush and outback is interesting indeed. New lesson learned. I think I have never heard of those words, so I guess it is Australian slang.

I am trying to contextualise it in my reality; I live in a suburb (called "Vallecas") and since "bush" implies greenery, as @Tom Storm points out, I guess I have some bush in the suburb I live in.

And, also yes, I used to play there when I was a kid, as well as @Janus.

My local "bush:"

https://maps.app.goo.gl/tk43Mu1AzFroVUM28

Sorry, Javi, Spain's cultural contributions don't extend to metal/rock/etc bands for this ignoramus. More Cervantes, Picasso, flamenco type of Spanish cultural interests... — kazan

I am deeply sorry for the small contribution of my nation to metal/rock/etc musical bands. Yes, we are better at other things. I will ask Rosemary (again, your stunning and very competent ambassador in Spain) if I could gift a beautiful surrealist painting by Dalí. I honestly believe it is a good start for diplomatic relationships. Looking forward to what is going on with Australian politics! I am very interested in this thread because I got fond of the country.

Ah, on the other hand, it is interesting to see that environmental issues are actually a key factor. Here happened the same on the municipal elections. People went to vote considering the best option to not keep screwing the planet. We don't act like the U.S.

Frame that truth...

OMG! You just pointed out a national concern. We can't let Australians down in this matter. I would like to write a letter to Anthony Albanese asking if he is able to have a meeting with me in his busy political agenda. Environmental issues are an important issue, indeed, but I think every country of the world should promote their national products. I don't want to look like a nationalist here because that's another thing. I mean, I would feel sad if the average Spaniard would prefer to eat sushi rather than paella. :yawn:

I bought a bottle of Australian wine a few weeks ago. It was harvested and manufactured in Victoria (state). Thanks to that Victorian mates, I delightfully tasted an amazing wine on an autumn evening in my house. :heart:

Conclusion: I think one of the main purposes of Australian politics should be the defence of national products such as Fosters. Furthermore, Trump is about to sit on the White House's couch, and his reckless mind would probably put tariffs on Fosters barrels. :roll:

I know I would sound like an alcoholic, but the first Australian thing that comes to my mind is Foster's beer, not AC/DC.

Nope. I would not conquer Australia. I am fond of the country and Aussie people, and they are clearly a rightful and straight country. They do not do weird things; either they aren't a threat to the rest of the world. I can't ask them anything but learning from them.

The ambassador to Spain is Rosemary Morris-Castico, and she holds a bachelor of arts. Probably, she is more qualified to do politics in my territory than any other mate with a suit in Congress. I think the appointment of Rosemary was a great decision done by the AU government. Look she does great things—as an artist she is—like visiting the Royal Tapestry Factory: https://www.instagram.com/p/DCEqhNPi3iL/?img_index=1

There are more chances of my country being conquered by the European Central Bank, honestly.

Yes.

Our President is the head of the government; thus, what you call Governor General.

Our King is the head of the state. A symbolic non-political figure.

Also, we have 17 representatives for each region. Thus, what you refer to as "division," I guess.

Unless as "divisions" you might refer to the seats of the Parliament. Represented by the folks who won the district. In this case, yes we have multiple reps.

Thanks. :up:
It is interesting that many of the folks are volunteers. I mean, that's positive. It increases the participation of the people in politics (in my opinion).

:up: We have similar rules regarding the schedule of the election day. Also, it is run by only one organisation, and the rules apply to all the Peninsula. We have some similarities; interesting indeed.

I understand from my sources that the AEC is sounding out staff concerning their availability in April.

I'm betting on the 5th or the 12th. — Banno

I want to keep learning more about Australian politics: what is the AEC sounding out staff on their availability for? Is it something related to elections?

Amazing how a little Spanish can rev up a thread. — kazan

Don't ever underestimate the power of the Spanish language as well as the Labour-Greens-Teal coalition in the eventual AU politics, as explained. :wink:

Después de la Guerra de Independencia, que duró varios años, hubo una guerra civil en la Argentina, la guerra de unitarios vs federales. Esa fue una guerra de argentinos contra argentinos, no de argentinos contra españoles, como en la Guerra de la Independencia. — Arcane Sandwich

De esto, en cambio si tenía idea, aunque un poco vaga y breve.

Sabía de la existencia de una guerra civil en Argentina, nacida después del proceso de independencia, pero desconocía las claves exactas aunque sí que tenía la noción de qué era por temas relacionados con la gestión y organización del nuevo estado. Bueno, para no andarme por las ramas: se de la guerra por la banderas. Si no me equivoco, un bando tenía la bandera con un azul más oscuro y una franja granate cruzada en la mitad, pero el otro eran el azul celeste y blanco actuales. Al ver esto supuse que éste fue el bando qué ganó la guerra pero no lo sé a ciencia cierta, honestamente.

En cuanto a la historia de la bandera argentina, particularmente los colores celeste y blanco, se suele decir que Manuel Belgrano se inspiró en el color del cielo y las nubes. — Arcane Sandwich

¡Ha vuelto a aparecer Belgrano en nuestro coloquio! Tengo billetes de 10 pesos dónde aparece Belgrano. Mi padre trabajó varios años en Buenos Aires, cómo representante de Telefonica. Le pedí traer recuerdos, y entre varias cosas son los billetes de 10 pesos con la efigie de Belgrano.

Bueno, volviendo al centro qué me he dejado llevar por la nostalgia. :sweat:

Mira, siendo muy sincero, me creo que Belgrano se inspirara en algo así. En mi opinión es loable y factible. Supongo qué el cielo en Argentina es vasto y amplio. Puede ser que Belgrano también tuviera una mentalidad de poeta o artística. Es decir, que no es baladí decir que se haya inspirado en el cielo para crear una bandera.

De hecho, ahora qué lo mencionas es verdad que el azul de la franja es así como claro, celeste, transparente, etc. No un azul artificial de pinturas.

bandera se originaron con la Orden de Carlos III, aparentemente. — Arcane Sandwich

Es otro de punto de vista igualmente válido que el que haber hecho la bandera inspirándose en el cielo.

El sol amarillo que la bandera tiene el medio, el Sol de Mayo, es en realidad el símbo Incaico del sol, llamado "Inti". Es el dios solar de la civiliación Inca. — Arcane Sandwich

Era conocerdor de ello. De hecho, Uruguay también utiliza un sol similar en su bandera.

La mayoría simplemente cree que Belgrano miró hacia arriba, vio el sol, el cielo y las nubes y dijo "Voy a fabricar una bandera que tenga esos tres colores". No lo creo, me parece que esa no es la explicación de verdad, mi amigo. — Arcane Sandwich

Es cierto qué suelen ser leyendas. Pero el sol, el cielo, las águilas, etc. Suelen ser símbolos nacionales de muchas banderas. De verdad, no descarto que Belgrano así se inspirara aunque suene un poco de fantasía o cuentista.

Te comparto acá un fragmento de Kusch que quizás te pueda interesar. Es de un libro suyo titulado América Profunda:

Se diría que el idioma castellano es el único idioma que ofrece dos posibilidades de existencia, una es la de ser y otra la de estar.
— Rodolfo Kusch

Fijate que no dice "idioma español", dice literalmente "idioma castellano". — Arcane Sandwich

¡Increíble! Qué delicia lo qué acabo de leer y todo lo que estoy aprendiendo contigo hoy. Kusch dejó una excelente frase para la historia. ¿Ves? Otra razón por la cual nos podríamos sentir orgullosos (aunque no creo que esta sea una palabra acertada del todo. No me gustaría sonar fanfarrón) de hablar castellano. Es un gran ejemplo, y seguro que hay otros. De hecho, ahora que estamos tratando las perlas de nuestro idioma, recuerdo que el pasado verano hicieron la siguiente pregunta: provea una sinónimo de ausente.

Me quedé pensando durante horas cuando lo dijeron en la radio. Aseveré qué podría tratarse de "desaparecido", pero ¡no! Busca y verás. Es interesante cómo ausente y desaparecido son distintos y así con muchas palabras.

Ah, y por supuesto los anglosajones ni se plantean ésto en su idioma. Estoy convencido qué un hilo sobre ser y estar tendría muchas respuestas, pero este no es el sitio adecuado al ser angloparlante.

Vos tenés nacionalidad española y ciudadanía española. Que yo sepa (y puedo estar equivocado), yo puedo obtener la ciudadanía española, pero no la nacionalidad española. Vos podés obtener la ciudadanía argentina, pero no la nacionalidad argentina. La nacionalidad la determina tu lugar de nacimiento, eso no se puede cambiar. Al menos eso tengo entendido, pero puedo estar equivocado. — Arcane Sandwich

No hacemos distinción entre nacionalidad y ciudadanía a no ser que seas de una región "foral" de España, cómo Galicia o Cataluña. Ser español equivale a tener ambas a la vez. Pero un gallego tiene la ciudadanía gallega y la nacionalidad española.

Podés obtener (en teoría, al menos) la ciudadanía australiana y la ciudadanía japonesa, pero no la nacionalidad australiana, tampoco la nacionalidad japonesa. Pero no estoy muy seguro de esto que estoy diciendo — Arcane Sandwich

Sé qué puedo obtenerlas. Pero para ello tendría que renunciar a la nacionalidad y ciudadanía españolas y evidentemente eso no lo voy a hacer ni loco. Sé que hay mejores sitios en el planeta y aquí hacemos cosas regular tirando a mal, pero no voy a renegar de ser español.

Este tema lo investigué cuando tuve que escribir mi Tesina de Licenciatura, y yo elegí como tema: las ideas filosóficas en la Argentina en 1810, particularmente las de Mariano Moreno. — Arcane Sandwich

Enhorabuena por tu tesina. Un título y un campo de investigación muy interesantes.

Durante el Virreinato del Río de la Plata, comenzó a surgir una rivalidad y una cierta hostilidad entre los españoles nacidos en la Península y los criollos nacidos en el Virreinato del Río de la Plata. Estos criollos eran, en algunos casos (probablemente la mayoría) de "pura cepa española" en cuanto a su ascendencia. La única diferencia es que habían nacido acá en Sudamérica en vez de allá en Europa. Esta rivalidad comenzó a polarizar y a radicalizar a esos dos grupos: los peninsulares y los criollos. Así se los llamaba. Eran idénticos en todo, excepto el lugar de nacimiento. — Arcane Sandwich

Desafortunadamente, desconozco todo ello que me explicas. Ahora estoy orgulloso y feliz de que tú (vos; si te puedo tutear aunque creo que ya lo he hecho) me enseñes tales conocimientos. En la educación elemental básica española se estudia poquísimo de América. Es un tremendo error. Cuando allí se empezó a fraguar las independencias, aquí había períodos muy convulsos. Bueno, nosotros estudiamos ésto último. La Constitución de 1812, la época de Fernando VII, Isabel II, el trienio liberal.

Así qué con tristeza, admito qué soy ignorante respecto a la historia de Argentina.

Era una rivalidad basada puramente, y exclusivamente, en el lugar de nacimiento: españoles peninsulares (los españoles "de verdad") versus los españoles criollos (los "españoles rioplatenses"). — Arcane Sandwich

Muy, muy interesante y de acuerdo con tu argumento. De hecho, gracias a ti veo las circunstancias con un nuevo punto de vista.

Ves que tiene un concepto filosófico de la patria, — Arcane Sandwich

Y su concepto es muy bueno. De hecho, no puedo objetar nada al concepto ofrecido por Manuel José de Lavardén.

En este contexto, me hace recordar qué la patria española, cómo concepto, también ha sido objeto de debate constante y de muchas interpretaciones. Algunas filosóficas y otras infructuosas.

Por ejemplo, este del poeta Antonio Machado:

"En España lo mejor es el pueblo.
Siempre ha sido lo mismo.
En los trances duros, los señoritos invocan la patria y la venden; el pueblo no la nombra siquiera, pero la compra con su sangre y la salva",

Aquí trata de asegurar qué la patria es el pueblo (¿la gente popular?) Y no los señoritos (la burguesía gobernante de siempre).

Es que de hecho funciona así, no sólo en España, sino en casi toda América Latina. Justamente, es la parte llamada "Hispanoamérica". — Arcane Sandwich

¡Ostras! No lo sabía. Es una grata sorpresa, sinceramente.

Hay algo que debo destacar respecto del Inglés y del Castellano, creo que lo habrás notado en algún momento (todos los que hablamos esos dos idiomas lo hemos notado en algún momento, me parece).

En el inglés, sólo existe una palabra para la 2nda persona del singular: "you". — Arcane Sandwich

Claro, porque el inglés es una lengua muy simple sinceramente. Qué sea una lengua muy básica tiene como ventaja que sea hablada en todo el mundo y se haya establecido como lengua estándar entre personas qué no comparten un lenguaje común.

Otro ejemplo más: recuerdo que a los estudiantes de intercambio les costaba distinguir entre ser y estar. Verbigracia: yo soy argentino pero estoy en Madrid de vacaciones.

Porque para ellos sólo existe el verbo "to be". Para los angloparlantes es más que suficiente y no parece que se quieran comer mucho la cabeza en distinguir entre ser y estar.

Creo que el euskera (vasco) es algo aparte. Nadie sabe de dónde viene ese lenguaje, me parece. Hay otros casos menos difíciles pero no por ello más sencillos: el andaluz, el cordobés, y a esta altura de la historia le diría que quizás existe tal cosa como "el madrileño", o "el barcelonés". O quizás estoy diciendo cualquier disparate. — Arcane Sandwich

Sí, pero ambos coincidimos de que los vascos van aparte. Esto se debe a qué sus raíces son, más o menos, indo-europeas. No sabe a ciencia cierta sus orígenes pero está acreditado qué no vienen del castellano ni del aragonés, ni mucho menos del catalán. En cambio un cordobés, un madrileño y un barcelonés tienen algo en común: pertenecieron al imperio romano y de ahí viene nuestra lengua y manera de actuar. Los vascos pueden jactarse que ellos son originales y únicos en ese aspecto.

Pensalo así: vos y yo tenemos más en común, en tanto castellanos, que vos y un catalán, que no hablan el mismo "dialecto" u "idioma provincial". No se si me entendés. — Arcane Sandwich

Sí, estoy de acuerdo, lo has explicado muy bien. Además, claro que tengo más en común seguro contigo qué con un tío o tía de Álava.

Sólo que, yo como argentino, no tengo esa nacionalidad. ¿Por qué no? Porque nací en la Argentina, justamente. No nací en España. Bueno, "¿Pero en papeles, cómo sería la cosa?", alguien podría preguntar. Justamente, tengo ciudadania argentina (por haber nacido en la Argentina). No tengo ciudadanía española. ¿Podría obtenerla? Por supuesto. — Arcane Sandwich

Justamente al leer ese comentario, es lo que te iba a responder. No serás español, pero puedes serlo. Yo no soy argentino ni rioplatense, pero puedo serlo si me lo propongo. ¿Puedo ser australiano? ¿Puedo ser japonés? Me temo que no... ni aún con esfuerzo. Habría ciertas cosas de esas nacionalidades que no se ajustarían en mi esencia de ser castellano. Sobretodo en cuanto a la japonesa. Su cultura es de respetar el silencio, todo lo contrario a la mía, que es ruidosa.

Y quizás debería, pero honestamente no veo para qué tendría que hacer tanta burocracia por un simple papel que, a esta altura de la vida, ya no me sirve de nada. — Arcane Sandwich

Bueno, siendo honesto, yo creo que tener una nacionalidad es muy importante, aunque hay qué pasar por trámites burocráticos. Siento pena por aquellos ciudadanos qué no tienen reconocida una nacionalidad, cómo en Sudán que se ha partido en dos por ejemplo. Parece un simple papel. Pero dicho papel da mucha seguridad y garantías.

¿Qué es Castilla? ¿Es una región? ¿Un reino? ¿Una provincia? ¿Un estado? ¿Un territorio? ¿Que es? — Arcane Sandwich

Y mucho más importante: ¿Qué territorio abarca Castilla y cuáles son sus límites? Porque incluso en esto hay discusión, ya que los comuneros (así se llaman las personas que promueven la idea política de que Castilla debería ser una) incluyen incluso la cordillera Cantábrica.

Castilla fue un reino, después una región y ahora una entidad extraña denominada "comunidad autónoma" qué la gente ni sabe lo que eso significa.

Pero entonces, ¿qué es la "españolidad", o "hispanidad"? Explicámelo de persona castellana a otra persona castellana. — Arcane Sandwich

Así, a bote pronto, la españolidad está ligado a ser español. Pienso que al formarse las repúblicas en Sudamérica, se perdió todo atisbo de hispanidad o españolidad allí, y empezaron a surgir otra esencia, la cual yo no puedo comprender al encontrarme tan lejos.

entonces mi "identidad provincial", por llamarla de algún modo, es bonaerense. Ése es el término técnico para alguien que nació en la provincia de buenos aires: bonaerense. — Arcane Sandwich

Esto es muy importante porque de lo que leo parece ser que le das importancia a la identidad local. Es decir, al ser bonaerense. Yo también hago lo mismo, al indicar que soy castellano y luego le pongo incluso una sub-identidad el ser madrileño. Pero, ¿qué es la identidad argentina? ¿Se encuentra dentro de la bonaerense? ¿La española se encuentra dentro de la castellana? ¿Y qué hablar de la catalana?

Yo tampoco. Creo que tendríamos más suerte con la definición filosófica o metafísica de la "castellanidad" antes que la de "hispanidad", me parece. — Arcane Sandwich

Muy bien dicho. :up:

Entonces, si la hispanidad es la lengua, entonces la hispanidad es "artificial" en cierto sentido, es algo así como un "invento linguístico". O quizás estoy equivocado. No se si tuvo mucho sentido eso que dije. — Arcane Sandwich

Tiene mucho sentido lo que relatas. Es evidente que la hispanidad es algo artificial al igual que la "common wealth" pero aún así creo que sería interesante indagar sobre el aspecto meta-lingüistico. Ya hemos rechazado los puntos de conexión que podrían ser políticos o sociológicos, pero la lengua sigo sintiéndola como un punto de apoyo importante entre tu y yo.

¿Por qué no? — Arcane Sandwich

Porque se convirtió en algo político, no cultural.

Quizás el "Día de la Aragonicidad" — Arcane Sandwich

Ya existe: la pilarica. Podrías celebrarlo perfectamente, si quisieras, no habría ninguna limitación e incluso tendría sentido. Mucho más sentido que celebrar el 4 de julio de los estadounidenses o los almendros en flor en Japón.

pero ahí ya empezamos a decir disparates, me parece. — Arcane Sandwich

No dices disparates, tío. De verdad qué tus preguntas son muy buenas y tienen mucha calidad. Me alegro de que finalmente se haya unido a TPF alguien como tú. ¿Con quién iba yo a debatir sobre todo esto tío? Si la mayoría son anglosajones y viven en la idiosincrasia y paraguas de su "common wealth" "common law" "united kingdom" etcétera...

qué es "el Español en general", en tanto lenguage, exactamente? — Arcane Sandwich

Una gran pregunta. Yo pienso que el español debería más bien identificarse con el castellano. En verdad, español deriva del país España, pero igualmente tu eres de Argentina y puedes hablar mi mismo idioma. Por lo tanto, creo que sería más acertado decir que el castellano es la lengua en general y español una nacionalidad.

Quedaría así: tú eres argentino, yo soy español, y ambos hablamos castellano. Estamos unidos por una lengua común, qué no es nada baladí. Todo lo contrario, es bonito e importante.

Yo soy madrileño y toda mi familia viene de Toledo y otras zonas de Castilla La Mancha. Es evidente que soy totalmente castellano. Pero pienso que mis orígenes se caracterizan por la lengua en la cual me expreso. Estoy convencido de que si fuera Vasco o catalán, daría mucha importancia a mis raíces y a la lengua. Seguro.

¿El idioma Español (el Castellano), incluye al Català? — Arcane Sandwich

Sí, por supuesto. También incluye al valenciano, balear, aragonés y gallego. En cambio, no sé si incluir el euskera.

¿Qué es la Hispanidad? ¿Existe? ¿Es una idea? ¿Es un concepto? ¿Es solo una palabra? ¿Es una cultura? ¿Es una memoria colectiva? ¿Qué es, exactamente? Porque yo no lo se. — Arcane Sandwich

El concepto "Hispanidad" es deficitario porqué tristemente sólo se observa desde el prisma político. Ni leyendo a Ortega y Gasset he dado con la definición filosófica o metafísica de la hispanidad. Generalmente suele ser incluso centripeta, porque se interpreta el concepto desde el paradigma de España, y esto es un error.

Para mí la hispanidad es la lengua. No sé hasta qué punto podría incluirse en la filosofía del lenguaje. Sobre cómo nosotros hacemos cosas con palabras o cómo identificamos la realidad qué nos rodea es gracias al castellano. Es un puente construido entre distintas naciones, qué hace conectarnos en un mundo para dar respuesta a través de un canal común. Los afluentes serían las distintos dialectos. Pero la hispanidad no es una nacionalidad, ni una mentalidad colectiva ni mucho menos una idea, sino el abecedario de la A a la Z, y nuestro complejo funcionamiento de formulación de frases y conceptos.

De hecho, nosotros también podemos ser metafísicos como muchos filósofos alemanes. Vamos a decir a éstos: te acompaño en el sentimiento. (cuando alguien fallece). ¿Se puede acompañar algo ininteligible como el sentimiento? ¿Qué es el sentir?

Cuando leo a Cervantes o Borgen, digo: ¡Qué bonito que ambos compartieron la misma lengua!
¡Qué bien que tu y yo podemos compartir opniones e ideas en una misma lengua sin que los demás se enteren! :smile:

Aclaro que yo no celebro el Día de la Hispanidad. ¿Por qué debería? Si yo no soy Español. Yo creo que Español es alguien que nació en España, y yo no nací en España, nací en la Argentina. — Arcane Sandwich

Yo tampoco celebro el día de la Hispanidad.

¿Usted preferiría que todo el mundo hable Català en vez de Castellano? — Arcane Sandwich

Por supuesto que no. Ni tampoco me gustaría perder las especialidades del castellano en cada país. De hecho, el catalán es algo que sólo existe allí y se quedará allí. No va a salir más lejos del puerto de Barcelona, honestamente.

Y traté de seguir la serie en el idioma original, en Català, sin subtítulos Castellanos, y simplemente no entendí nada. — Arcane Sandwich

He estado en Cataluña. Hablan catalán a propósito para que no les entiendas, salvo alguna excepción en Barcelona. Con esto obtienen lo contrario, que la gente no se interese.

I love posting in Spanish with you, yet I think we are not entitled to do so in this thread. It is fine to do it a bit, but the moderators might scold us next time since the forum is an English-speaking site. :smile:

Hmmm... But Spain was always a multi-national peninsula, is what they would say in response to that. The most obvious example is the Basque Country. But then there are more subtle cases, like Cataluña.

your answer has to be related, in some way, to Australian politics. — Arcane Sandwich

I think only nationalists consider the Basque Country and Catalunya as nations in the pure sense of the word. Spanish—or Iberian—is their true heritage. Well, I could say that a Basque and a Navarre have Indo-European roots. Why not?

Nonetheless, Spain—as the union of Castille and Aragon—is the representative entity of Spaniards, whether Catalans like it or not. For this reason, which is purely logical and makes sense, Australian politics (regarding the eucalyptus) would not be effective if their PM only focuses on a concert region of Spain's corner. Let's say we have to solve the drought in Almería—caused in part by the eucalyptus—and some effectiveness is demanded by the people. Politics should be useful to the people. Therefore, effectiveness would only be possible if the decisions are taken by rightful entities. Australia will reach an agreement with Spain, because the latter is already the rightful nation. This would not be possible if we were still divided into pieces.

Oh, Jesus. I don't know if that makes sense. I tried my best. Don't expect too much from my wisdom and knowledge skills.

Especially in a Thread called "Australian politics". Hmmm... is it correct to talk about this, here? Well, they (the Australians) are part of a monarchy, so I would say yes. — Arcane Sandwich

Oh yes, don't worry. Different topics tend to get crossed with each other in the threads.

For example, if you are a Spanish nationalist, then you can also be a European continentalist, because Spain is part of Europe. If you're an Australian nationalist, then you can be an Oceanic continentalist, because Australia is part of Oceania. If you're an Argentine nationalist, you can be a Southamerican continentalist, because Argentina is part of South America. — Arcane Sandwich

I fully agree.

¿Mentalidad colectiva? ¿Y que sería eso, buen hombre? — Arcane Sandwich

Bueno, la mentalidad colectiva podría estar relacionada con los valores, costumbres, ideas... Por ejemplo: Creo que la famosa sobremesa española forma parte de nuestra mentalidad colectiva.

-- Alas, an international organisation appears to be insufficient for the most relevant matters. Look at the attitude of the UN towards Palestine, for instance. Furthermore, if Australia would have a dispute with Spain because of the eucalyptus, both nations would resolve it bilaterally. No supranational entity can do anything.

Why should Australia listen to the UN rather than the ambassador of Spain? So Spain has the Australian ambassador as well.