I partly agree. I should have stated more carefully that the so called (By me) Second Universe is part and parcel of the so called (by me) Real Universe.)

I am an artist, a very good artist, well known for my stoneware. I am not a philosopher nor a scientest, *(although I have read much of both).

But I only read philosopy or science for pleasure and never for learning so I sometimes remember very little of what I read..)

I made no attempt (except perhaps intuitivally) to organize all this. I don't know how. I just wrote it
.
"The smarter than" comment I meant as a joke. A take off on the "my dad can lick your dad" children's line. I should have said, and almost did: "My Second Universe can lick your Second Universe."

My lines are literary and not technical and I feel very highly complimented by some of your lines. I am highly pleased. Thank you .
Ken

I seems to me that Vegans deplore the eating of meat as being in some way harmful or damageing to an entire species. That idea is, on the face of it, unrealistic.

Take for example Cattle. Cattle, wihin a short few years, have changed from being a mildly successful species in terms of survival to becoming a wildly successful species survival wise. Cattle, thanks to we humans, have become one of the most successfu species of all time.

So, my answer to any possible bull that might want to thank me for its fantasic survival, might be --"Oh don't hank me. Thank my butcher."

I never said the conscious mind was feeble. I only said that the number of mental activities performed by the conscious mind are much, much fewer in number than those performed by the mighty subconscious mind.

The subconscious mind has many many more jobs to do. The billions of human brain cells in the subconscious mind, inside of a human skull, are responsible for receiving sensory input from the external world, such as sight, touch and hearing, for sending motor commands to all of our muscles including the heart and lung muscles and the muscles used for dancing and fighting and speaking, for eating, for digesting and for controlling the timing and quantities of glandular secretions, and for transforming and relaying the electrical signals at every step in between.

They cogitate a million times a second and include all awareness, all intuition, the intricate creation of emotions and the timing and amounts of all secretions from the glands.

Plus the control of all muscles used by the speaking muscles of the conscious mind that is new and slightly apart and is located in the prefrontal lobe.

Plus millions of other thinking activities that I know nothing about.

The one thing that they cannot do is to think with words.

Actually it is basically all one mind, the subconscious mind and the conscious mind.

I know of none of the technical details included in all of this. I am an artist not a Psychologist.

But I read a lot.

As for trusting me, I might give you some good advice: Never trust anyone."

I can, perhaps, add to EnPassan's analogy.

When I was about 5 years old my parents took me to light concert hall in Kansas City and we sat fairly close to the conductor. The conductor's arm movements and the music were so closely correlated that I automatically assumed that he was the one making the music. I was amazed and I tried to figure out how he was doing it.

As for EnPassan's words: "Likewise with mind and brain. The brain is a processor not a creator. The mind creates thought, not the brain".

I insist that the mind and the brain are one and the same thing. It seems to me that some who are participating in this discussion are saying or perhaps implying that minds and thinking processes have no material or physicalogical existence. Am I correct?

Heiko goes so far as to suggest: "The determination of the content seems to be outside the mental form."

If that were so, if they do not exist as living flesh how do they exist?

Thinking creates electrical currents in certain specific areas of the brain and the exact placement of hundreds if not thousands of these currents have been located inside of human heads and correlated with specific thoughts. Routinely. The human brain has been intensly and completly mapped.

Thoughts are patterns of neurones, ie brain cells.

I like that last. "GOD: The highest nature of reality itself, and when you realize it you disappear."

You misunderstand me. I was only discussing my own mild confusion and I was discussing several words and some of the many different ways that I they are used. I was not discussing religions or beliefs or dogmas or the many interpretations of Christianity. I am totally unqualified for such.

I was talking merely about five Words and the meaning of those words as they are sometimes used by many people.

I referred to nothing else and what I may personally believe or believe in (whatever that means) is my own affair.

I was talking about the use of five words. God, Gods, Jehovah, Jesus Christ, and Maria. I gave no opinions about the existence or nonexistence of such entities and I am totally unqualified to do so.

I am quite properly using their given names as they might appear on their birth certificates.

I speak only of what I, myself, have personally observed.

I have observed that many - many people refer to Jehovah as being a God. You did yourself, or rather you implied it, in your phrase: "Apostle and the Virgin Mary ....we acknowledge they are the Servants of God". I assume that you are using the words "The apostle" as another name or a nickname for "Jesus Christ" and that He and Mary are servants of Jehovah or, in the Case of Jesus, his son.

The word "servants" here is meaningless.

I simply describe the generally accepted opinions that these three entities are "Gods or Goddesses" in that all three routinely are described as engaging in the very Godlike behavior of listening to millions of prayers daily and at times acting on them.

My point is a very trivial one.

That there are three such and not merely one.

I am confused about the use of the word "God" that is used in most of the above discussions. Would it not be more correct to use the word: "Gods"?

Is not Jehovah considered by many here to be a God? Jehovah is 14 billion years old and created a big bunch of stuff? Is all of that so negligable as to be ignored?

And Is not not Jesus Christ considered to be a God by many here? That makes two Gods here as an absolute minimum.

And are there any Catholics participating in the above discussions? If so do not Catholics not consider Mary, wife of Jehove and mother of Jesus, to be a Goddess and being prayed to and to be listening to such prayers? Is Mary not Godly?

That makes three Gods.

I have heard of some Catholic Saints performing miracles and being prayed to. Is that not Godly behavior?

That might make multiple Gods here in these discussions.

I do not exist and I will attack with my fists anyone who says I do exist.

No. You are born with them. They are ordinary brain cells and are almost identical with calves brains that are on the menues of restaurants. If any are lost they are not replaced.

It is the pattern of cells that carry information, not the brain cells themselves. The number of different arrrangements or patterns of a humans brain cells would be greater than the number of pounds of matter in the known universe.

Yes, Sir2u. As you state brains are created in the mother's womb only up to a certain point. They are then added too in enormous quantities by many processes some of which i might roughly describe as: "Comitting to memory" and "Remembering" and other process some of which I might describe as: "learning" and many others of which, in my ignorance I know nothing about.

Miller says: "fatty transistors" are produced by consciousness
Answer:
Bricks and stones or mountains and valleys and fatty conductors exist in the real word and and are frequently millions of years old and obviously could not have been created by " consciousness" or by any other human or animal mental activity.

in answer to Space Dweller. "1. Conscious mind is a biological phenomena
2. Animals are less conscious but never completely unaware"

Correct. I thnk I said that. Or strongly implied it.

Yes. The highest animales, our close cousins, dwarf chimpanzies, have partially evolved conscious minds and can deal with many words and symbols frequently in the guise of some kinds of pictographs. But they lack finally attuned speaking mechanisms.

I did not say that words are the only way to communicate . Not by a long shot. Dogs, for example bark and also communiate incredibly well by aid of a special communication organ called: " a Dogs Tail.

Awarenes does not exist in the conscious mind but does massively exists in our subconscios minds and in all other animals such as worms and elephants.

In my case, "a handful of years compared to 350 million" is whatever I think it is.

You, praxis, are right if you are referring only to the collection of brain cells that comprise the conscious "you". But if you include your history then you err.

Existence or non existence cannot be affected by negligibility.

Right on, apokrisis.

Shawn says : "Antinatalists are screaming."
Maybe I'm just dumb but I don't get it. I don't get the connection.

Please explain.

Re - Our God is an awesome God.

I assume you refer to the God Jehovah, who is 11 billion years old. Or perhaps to his son, the God Jesus Christ. Or, if you are a Catholic, to the Goddess Mary, wife of the God Jehovah. Or perhaps to Allah said by Moslems to be the same God as Jehovah but denied by Christions.

Do you include me, Ken Edwards, in the word - "Our"? If so you err.

Please explain.

"I’m no biologist but I don’t thing anything needs to travel down to my balls for them to be fertile"

You're right. Your balls manufacture future yous, ie Sperm.

But, alas, mine don't anymore.

You say: Shouldn't you be busy putting razor blades in candy?

Sorry I don't get it.

Good Luck

Here is what I think. I think that we human beings were not created all at once, all at one stroke. I think that we all evolved slowly over a period of 350 million years.
I believe that all humans are of the same age.
The very first living being with genes and reproductive facilities was born spontaneously in the ocean 350 million years ago and has never since died. It still lives. It has slowly evolved through millions of centuries into you and me and into all of the other millions of different forms of life on the planet earth and on the space station.
We are all, in a very real sense, 350 million years old.
But you, my friend, are the final you. And you soon will die.
Every human being has always existed in one of two different shapes. He has always lived in the shape of a SPERM CELL or the shape of an OVA CELL.
Except for this one brief moment, (today). We each exist today in the shape of the animal we see in a mirror.

In ALL of this 350 million years, only once have you and I ever seen the sun. Only once.
All humans alive today have basked in the light of the sun. All humans alive today will take that vision with them to the grave. And that cold, cold grave will be the first and only time they will ever have experienced the cold of death in al their long, long lives.

But maybe not the last!
There is still hope! Not for me, alas, but maybe for you!

Perhaps a single, tiny piece of you will travel down to your testicles and and will live there comfortably and will then be squirted into a living vagina.

And will live forever.

Good Luck, Ken Edwards

The mind is material and, like all of matter it exists in space and has mass.

The mind is a pattern or arrangement of brain cells. Brain cells, like all matter, exist in space and have mass that can be weighed. Minds or brain cells are enclosed by bone and look like bloody lard. The bloody look is caused by hundreds of small veins and arteries that feed the brain oxygen and water and food and remove carbon dioxide.

Brain cells generate electricity and the on-off currents of electricity can easily be detected.

Conscious minds.

Does a Conscious Mind actually exist? Yes. A conscious mind exists physically as a material object. You can see it. I see my conscious mind every day when I shave.

A conscious mind exists in space and time and exists in the form of arrangements or patterns of brain cells inside of a human head. It is lodged in that big, wide bump just above the eyes which is called "a pre frontal lobe".

That bump is a conscious mind.

The conscious mind is bone encased, The conscious mind is made of human brain cells or more accurately as patterns of brain cells.

A conscious mind can be cut out of a person's head with a scalpel and thrown into a waste basket.

It is a well known fact that there are men who are alive today that have had their conscious minds amputated and the enclosing skin pulled back and sewn together again. This surgical operation is a last resort operation used to save the lives of people who have brain disorders like brain cancer inside the cells of their prefrontal lobes.

Afterwards these men can live happily but can no longer use words.

I am not speaking figuratively. I am speaking literally. I am stating well know facts.

But the following may be original.

Please look at some of the words I just spoke. Look at the word "figuratively". Look at the word "am". look at the word "speaking".

Where did I find these words? I found them in a big word storage box located somewhere inside of my prefrontal lobe called "my vocabulary".

They were detected and stored and turned into sound waves or typed words by my conscious mind. That's what my conscious mind is there for. To work with words.

When I was born I had a word box but it was empty. The first word I learned and stored in that box probably was the word "Mama".

Part of my growing up was the learning of new words. Since I love reading books, usually for pleasure, and I also speak Spanish I have stored well over a thousand words in that box.

Only humans have conscious minds. No animal has that bump.

What do conscious mind cells look like?

They look like bloody lard. The cells themselves are made largely of fat with some carbohydrates and proteans.

I have eaten such brain cells with lots of lemon and salt in Calf Brain recipes.

Well, so what have I done here??

I have asked my conscious mind to tell me what a conscious mind is and it did. Great!

Conscious minds were evolved in the human race (and only in the human race) very recently, perhaps less that a half million years ago.

But that is another story. For later.

Consciousness. That is another, and far more difficult question. I tend to agree with Leteltty. Later.

The phrase "good/bad things happen to you" is too generalized for me. Good and bad are vague, wishy-washy terms that drift with the tide and shift around and have little meaning.

Each good thing and each bad thing that happens to you is different and has a different cause and needs to be examined individually.

Most of the hundreds of things that happen to you in a day are neither good nor bad or perhaps they may be simultaneously good and bad. Like neckties improve your image but also choke you to death. Plus some things judged to be good may actually be bad for you and vice versa. Plus you are not even consciously aware of most of the things that happen to you like wasp stings you are always aware of but mosquito bites sometimes you are and sometimes you are not.

And you can apply free will only to things that you are consciously aware of.

I go with Lindsay.

I think there are times in our discussions when we do not keep in mind the facts of our own basic mental existence including our instincts.

We are born with our instincts. All men have basically the same instincts. Instincts exist because they promote survival.

As regards to free will. I have never known a person that did not behave as if he had free will. Our attitude toward freewill is instinctive and is part of our mental heritage.

In my own mind I am utterly confident that I have free will.

I cannot even begin to imagine how I might act if I did not have free will.

And yet logically it is obvious that free will does not and cannot exist. I have read many rational discussions that are adamant on that point.

Thus I have a strong belief that free will cannot exist. I also have a strong instinct that free will does exist.

Men obey their instincts. Men do not obey their beliefs.

So where does that leave us?

I don't know. I was hoping that you might know.

As for fate, Fate does not exist there is no such thing as fate. It does exist in sort of a ghostly form as complex arrengements of words.

Ken Edwards

If you would allow me a well informed guess, permit me to use a wild, meaningles number. You are correct to, lets see, by a factor of 20 million to 1. That is for every thought in words you have you have 20 million intuitive mind thoughts or overmind thoughts.

This can best be illustrated by the the weight of the actual brain cells in the conscuious mind which can only thinks in words compared to the size of the rest of the mind which thinks without words.

There is nothing new or mysterious here. This is all rudimentary, beginners stuff in the Science of Psychology and the Science of Linguistics.

The conscious mind developed very late in human evolution, very, very recently, perhaps as recent as in the last half million years.

The conscious mind is located in the prefronal lobes of the human brain which is that big bulge right above the eyes a very small part of the total human brain.

I tend to avoidthe word know because it smacks of an absolute.
Do you realize you are talking about talking horses? Do you seriously doubt that there are no talking elephants. Of course I assume that. So do you.

An interestig way to put it. But we are reduced to talking about talking which is is like searching for answers by staring dow at our own naveless

I am asking a religeous question here that maybe can not be answered precisely. Maybe it can best be answered by stating opinions.
Is religeon primarily concerned with human Morals? Or primarily with religeous Ritual? Or primarily concened with advice about mundane concerns of day to day living? Or primarily concerned with group activities such as Bingo games or picnics? Or economics? Or all of the above in equal amounts?

I am takig a big risk here in asserting: "There is no such thing as: "A science that is not known."
All science exists inside human brains and inside human writings and exist in no other place in the known universe.

Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you. Lao Tzu. Witter Bynner
A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves.
Lao Tzu. Witter Bynner
Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.
Lao Tzu
The key to growth is the introduction of higher dimensions of consciousness into our awareness.
If the Great Way perishes there will morality and duty. When cleverness and knowledge arise great lies will flourish. When relatives fall out with one another there will be filial duty and love. When states are in confusion there will be faithful servants.
When the natural goodness of man fails, written codes of morality will flourish, When written codes of morality fail, Laws and Lawyers will fourish.
Lao Tzu
When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you.
Lao Tzu
Treat those who are good with goodness, and also treat those who are not good with goodness. Thus goodness is attained. Be honest to those who are honest, and be also honest to those who are not honest. Thus honesty is attained.
Lao Tzu When a nation is filled with strife, then do patriots flourish.
Lao Tzu
To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
Lao Tzu
The power of intuitive understanding will protect you from harm until the end of your days. (Particulary if you are able to integrate intuition and logic in the conscious mind as I do routinely as an artist.)
Lao Tzu
I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any.
Lao Tzu
He who does not trust enough will not be trusted.

Religious and atheist thinking are totally and easily compatible as is witnessed by the "atheist" religions, Taoism and Confucianism and Buddhism

I just discovered these notes in my files. Long ago I was a follower of Lao Tzu. I even took Witter Bynner to war with me. But I have forgotten most of it.
Lao Tzu. Witter Bynner
Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you.
A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: "we did it ourselves".
Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.
Lao Tzu
When the natural goodness of man fails, written codes of morality will flourish, When written codes of morality fail, Laws and Lawyers will fourish.
Here he is unknowingly describing the advent of the agricultural revolution 10,000 years age.
The key to growth is the introduction of higher dimensions of consciousness into our awareness.

If the Great Way perishes there will morality and duty. When cleverness and knowledge arise great lies will flourish. When relatives fall out with one another there will be filial duty and love. When states are in confusion there will be faithful servants.
Lao Tzu
When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you.
Lao Tzu
Treat those who are good with goodness, and also treat those who are not good with goodness. Thus goodness is attained. Be honest to those who are honest, and be also honest to those who are not honest. Thus honesty is attained.
Lao Tzu. When a nation is filled with strife, then do patriots flourish.
Lao Tzu
To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
Lao Tzu
The power of intuitive understanding will protect you from harm until the end of your days. (Particularly If you learn to integrate intuition and logic into the conscious mind which I do frequently as an artist.)
Lao Tzu
Notice his back handed slap at gods.
I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any.
Lao Tzu
He who does not trust enough will not be trusted.

Again I might suggest that we spend more time examining questions and less on answers. The healthy thing about looking at questions is that it can be comfortable and comforting simply to say: "We don't know the answer to that yet but we have succeeded clarifying the issues and we are hot on its tail."

My internet connections range from erratic to non existent.

I am in general agreement. I might add that difficult or obscure or overly complex answers to questions are frequentlynot the problems. The problems are difficult or obscure or overly complex questions. Many times I have found that it is far better to spend more time examining questions than on devising convoluted answers.

My close friend Ray always looked puzzled when asked what religion he was. He said he didn't know what he was because he had never bothered to wonder about such a triviality.

Quite true. In my own case part of the reason was that I considered that Christian morality was not good enough or detailed enough for me.

What is the difference between social truths and morals?

Hi Athena. We have been discussing myths but, unless I missed it We have not been looking at specific myths. When I grew up we had several myths for children, mostly for entertainment but sometimes acting as warnings. Godilocks and the 3 bears I would say is entertainment but the boy who cried Wolf was definitely a warning.
But what about current children's myths? Do any exist in competition with TV? A modern child hearing of Peter and the wolf would think: Why weren't the parent in jail for child neglect?
Do you personally know any myths?