I also recognize two types of thinking. I call them making crap up and learning. Some people just make crap up, because they are to lazy to go out and learn. For example some people are bad at math, because they don't try hard enough and make excuses. — Jeremiah

I would call your response - uncompassionate. Some day the shoe will be on the other foot and you may need some compassion.

I find people funny. It is funny to have people here say something like – logic is science, but only logic that conforms to certain rules is proper logic. In other words – I approve logic – but only logic that I approve. Is this good logic? It does not sound logical to me. There is good logic and faulty logic. Both good and bad logic exist – is this logic good or bad?

The universe is balanced perfectly or at least pretty good until our sun explodes. Is life on earth a coincidence or we are the luckiest creatures around? I believe we are lucky – overwhelmingly. There is just too much coincidence, balance and fortuitousness everywhere – too much good luck – not to believe in a divine hand. And I think we are lucky God does not require us to believe in it - or not. In fact, God does not seem to care if we believe in it. Although - religions do a very good job of cajoling us about God’s – existence – dictates and admonishments. God does not seem insecure – humans are insecure. From my point of view, God sets a life equation in motion and says – “see what you can do with this environment and tools”. I feel the equation of God, but I am not overwhelmed with spiritual awareness. God does not pressure me to be aware of “it’s” equation, and, I think this is part of its equation.

I have morals and ethics, but they come from my Mother and Father and society – not God. In my view God’s existence is subtle. The morals and ethics of God are beyond my understanding. God does not prescribe what is right and wrong on this planet. Consider for a moment what happens when a huge star goes supernova. A galaxy can be destroyed. How many times has a supernova happened - millions – trillions? Don’t you think there is intelligent life in those galaxies? I bet there is life and it probably is much more advanced than ours. And yet God allowed or caused that life to be extinguished. I think we are one of ten billion experiments by God – probably more. What is the reasoning – I don’t presume to know – do you – does anybody? I can speculate, but I think only God knows.

What I do think it signifies is that we are not exceedingly significant or important in God’s eyes. As we speak a lot of the universe is exploding. I think we are expendable. God has bigger fish to fry. Should we feel insignificant and insecure? I don’t think there is an alternative. However, we are not insignificant either - we have been provided for – a great planet, atmosphere and most importantly the tools of consciousness in a wonderful body. These are gifts - not accidents.

I do not think it is in the providence of humans to define God. I do not believe God has spoken to us directly. I think all bibles are man-made. I do believe God speaks to us indirectly – subtly. It sets a stage – in which we are allowed to evolve. I think we are required to define our own purpose. I do not think God is concerned with the human concepts and conditions of good and evil. What is good or evil to God is beyond our understanding. I do not know how we got here or what happens after we die. The reward of life is here now. We have been given a wonderful environment and great tools – this is what I call the equation of God. The stage has been set – each character has been cast – and we are performing – seeking our destiny. I think most of our existence is determined, but through the gift of emotion we are given a degree of freedom.

If you want to remain open, you can tell her you are willing to talk about her issues and potentially help her find out her direction. However, you do not owe her anything, especially if she shows no signs of actually trying to move into a better situation. — Chany

I think this gets to the heart of the matter. We are not responsible for other people's ethics or morality. We are only responsible for what we do - right or wrong.

In writing on this forum we are talking (writing) and listening (reading) to one another which is - 'us'.

Are you saying we choose without reason or our choices are moral? — woodart

Please answer the question and stop quibbling.

Philosophy is a process of discovery. It attempts to bring closure to an idea or concept. Philosophy can sometimes bring satisfaction, sometimes even happiness – but – there are no guarantees in the investigation for closure, satisfaction or happiness. Ignorance can sometimes be blissful, but most of the time I think it is just ignorant – and not a paradox.

A choice is a desire. A desire is a wish to obtain something. For example, I wish to talk – to express a thought. The thought that I express – like this one – is my choice. It is very pertinent to ask why I wish to talk – that goes to motivation. My motivation is to understand myself and the idea of choice. Choice is related to free will. So, then we explore the nature of free will and its boundaries. Our free will is limited by the available choices we can make – there is always a limit. So we have free will, but it is limited.

A choice can perhaps be a decision that contains an absence of an impulse or instinctual drive that mechanically pulls us to act without reason in order to immediately satisfy and it needn't only be sexual or aggressive. It is acting without reason; the autonomy to reason is acting without being enslaved to our impulses. A choice must therefore be wholly moral, something peculiar only to those who possess it. "Every determination of choice proceeds from the representation of a possible action to the deed through the feeling of pleasure or displeasure, taking an interest in the action or its effect.” — TimeLine

Nothing rational took place because it was instinctual. Your decision was propelled by an impulse but a rational choice to eat foods that contains the highest nutrients for optimal health and the required energy to sustain you despite the taste is an actual choice. — TimeLine

I hear you talk, but I do not hear you saying very much - you seem very adept at hiding behind your words - obfuscation. Are you saying we choose without reason or our choices are moral? Try and be clear - stop trying to impress us with your words - impress us with a clear reason.

Choice is a function of our will. Will is a type of choice. We make choices – but why do make choices? We are motivated, but what drives the motivation? Desire drives motivation – so what is desire? Desire is an appetite – a hunger – a predilection. An appetite can be visceral or cerebral or both. Appetites come in all shapes and sizes and various levels of intensity. Appetites as a metaphor live in our stomachs; however we also have appetites in our intellect – mind’s eye – emotions – genitals – wardrobes - etc. We sniff at something before we are ready to taste it. The sniff is the priming of the pump for our choice. Our choice is our hearts desire. We are free to will a choice, but our choices are largely determined and somewhat finite. Infinite is an abstraction we dance with, but really do not know. Our nose leads us towards a predilection, but we don’t develop an appetite until we taste. Our nose sparks our desire – that’s why pheromones are so important. We usually choose between a limited set of options. So there is freedom – but only to a degree. We have a constrained freedom amongst limited choices. Kind of like words and ideas.

Will is a type of choice. We make choices – but why do make choices? We are motivated, but what drives the motivation? Desire drives motivation – so what is desire? Desire is an appetite – a hunger – a predilection. An appetite can be visceral or cerebral or both. Appetites come in all shapes and sizes and various levels of intensity. Appetites as a metaphor live in our stomachs; however we also have appetites in our intellect – mind’s eye – emotions – genitals – wardrobes - etc. We sniff at something before we are ready to taste it. The sniff is the priming of the pump for our choice. Our choice is our hearts desire. We are free to will a choice, but our choices are largely determined and somewhat finite. Infinite is an abstraction we dance with, but really do not know. Our nose leads us towards a predilection, but we don’t develop an appetite until we taste. Our nose sparks our desire – that’s why pheromones are so important. We usually choose between a limited set of options. So there is freedom – but only to a degree. We have a constrained freedom amongst limited choices. Kind of like words and ideas.

That being said, however, I do believe science should be more integrated into the philosophy departments (and not necessarily vice-versa). Philosophers need to be knowledgeable about science, but scientists do not necessarily need to be knowledgeable about philosophy (it's more like it's optional, or perhaps a one-semester class). — darthbarracuda

I disagree philosophy is beneficial for everyone - actually obligatory.

I don't believe that the main purpose of our dreams is to "tell us something," to "give us an alternative reality," to "jolt our thinking," to "expand our reality," or to help us find solutions to problems. Some of these may occasionally be a fortunate byproduct of some dreams, but it strikes me as too 'new age-y' or mystical or unscientific to consider this as their main function. — Luke

Can we agree that dreams tell us stories? If so, what is the purpose of these stories? Are some of these stories significant? I think so – do a google search about “discoveries made in dreams”. The results are astounding. Dreaming is not the only methodology we use for problem solving, but it certainly is an arrow in our quiver. We all do it – and – I agree it may help us to sleep better. Dreaming is a large part of our lives – it is not a waste of time - unless you ignore them – which is each individual's prerogative. Dreams have solved big problems; but for most of us – we deal in little problems. Dreams solve every day little problems – this is very significant.

I don't consider the "meaning" of dreams to be very significant. — Luke

Dreams give us an alternative reality. Sometimes the alternative is really absurd – seemingly nonsense. However, there can be great value in the absurd – nonsense – abstraction. The value is not necessarily the nonsense, but the jolt to our thinking that the absurd gives us. To question reality is a good thing. I am not saying we should accept the absurd; but to take the information as grist for the mill. If I have a dream in which I kill a loved one with a machete; I should not wake and do it. However, I should examine why I would ever think that thought. Having that kind of dream should tell me something about my relationship with that loved one. Perhaps I also hate them – I should ask myself why. So my point is that this machete dream has value – value for good. I should learn from my dreams.

Absurd dreams don’t necessarily have to be emotional or violent – they can absurd solutions to problems or conditions. I can have a dream in which my vehicle runs out of fuel and I have no access to a gas station. In my dream I put grass in the fuel tank and keep on driving. Absurd, yes – but perhaps I am telling myself there is an alternative to gasoline. Perhaps this is the spark to create a vehicle that uses biofuel. Dreams take us out of reality for a reason – to expand our reality – to see over the horizon – to envision a new horizon. This is an important function.

I hear you – it is advantageous to be practical with one’s life. Many philosophers are not practical. However, many are like your neighbor’s son who are successful in the real world and the world of ideas. Ideally we want both – right? There is an old saying – there are those who can do – there are those who can think – there are those who can do neither – and a few who can do both.

Which are you? Do you need structure to succeed? Are you fearless? — T Clark

Not cave folk, I'm thinking older than that.
What I mean is that some of the information would obviously be adverse. Let's say one dream has a predator killed and a few days later they mix up the dream and believe the predator is dead only for it to later kill them. This is what I mean when I say they are odd in evolutionary terms. All I can think is that dreams were different back then (had a different function) or the truth does not matter so much because it gave a fitness (encouragement?) that was beyond fact.

Yes, people can act on dreams now because we are all have an intuitive understanding of semiology and can differentiate information through self reflection. I do not know if the earlier animals were able to do that. — JupiterJess

So you are thinking of our really ancient ancestors – before verbal language skills developed. Probably 200,000 years ago – I will call him protoman. I think you are on to something, but I can’t quite grasp it yet. His dreams were just image stories without a verbal narrative. Kind of like the silent movies without the reference to language. Dreams were locked into a time frame. There was no language except grunts and pointing. Protoman did not have clothes or weapons – lived in trees and under rocks for protection. Did dreams help him to evolve? Perhaps he dreamed of becoming the tiger with a warm coat for night and then shed the coat and transform back to human for daytime. The illusion of change gave rise to the motivation to change – become more. Protoman looked to his dreams and found “encouragement” to be more. Dreams opened the door to the room of imagination – fantasy – horror – death – delight.

I think dreams are key to our evolution – vision of what we will become. Dreams give us a different picture. The absurdity is important because it slaps us in the face. If dreams are just a replay of what happens during the day – what is the point? We need to be kindled. Dreams tell us we are both idiots and geniuses. Don’t we need that? Dreams are the wellspring of possibility. We need a story of what is over the horizon - so that we go over the horizon and find out what is there. Protoman left Africa 75,000 years ago – in search of something – we are starting on our quest off the planet – in search of what? We need to evolve as a species – and we need dreams in order to do it. Perhaps that is why other animals don’t evolve very much – because they don’t dream enough. Dreams that drive us crazy also motivate us to do radical things. Not all radical things are worthwhile; however, if one out of a thousand is beneficial to the species – the experimentation is important.

What are the benefits of lucid dreaming? Is there a downside?
— woodart

I do not know. I was interested in occult AP stuff at that time. — JupiterJess

I think lucid dreaming puts us more in the driving seat for our own evolution. It is hard to do, but I think worthwhile – I will redouble my efforts and start again.

I meant they would have had greater evolutionary value than their current forum. The reason I say this is because dreams present adverse information that overtime could be confused as being something that happened. — JupiterJess

Interesting – so you think the current form of our dreams is different than our caveman ancestors? Do you think our caveman ancestors believed their dreams to be real? Did our caveman ancestors evolve more rapidly because they took their dreams more seriously? If we paid more attention to our dreams would it quicken our evolution? Are we ignoring an important accelerant to our evolution?

They are very odd in thier current form. — JupiterJess

What is the current form of our dreams? What did it used to be for our caveman ancestors? What is odd about our dreams today? I think many a modern man tends to avoid paying attention to their dreams. There is a lot of evidence to that effect in this thread. Are people afraid of what they dream? What are the consequences for people who ignore their dreams? What are the benefits for people who follow their dreams?

I've tried Lucid dreaming techniques and they worked for a time. Eventually the prompts become ineffective. It's weirdly exhausting so I keep putting it off. — JupiterJess

I too grew tired of lucid dreaming – it is very exhausting. What are the benefits of lucid dreaming? Is there a downside?

Philosophy is a failure of a discipline. To me, the failure of philosophy represents the absurdity of putting one's trust in the unaided human intellect. Boy, am I glad I got a degree in engineering! — lambda

When you build something, do you just get out the hammer and nails and start banging away? Or, as an engineer, do you think about it first? Engineering is a deliberate process – or at least it should be – if it is good engineering. Philosophy is the exact same dynamic. Where do you think mathematics came from? What is the function of mathematics? We use math to calculate things on a basic level - arithmetically. Very useful for grocery shopping. How about if we want to send a rocket to the moon? Now we are using a higher level of math – to predict – estimate – probability. We do the same thing in philosophy – we cogitate for predictability – we estimate the probability – and so on. Mathematics was born from philosophy – the first science. All science relies on philosophy – including engineering to this very day.

I mostly agree with ole Bertrand. I think we can also use philosophy for entertainment - even in a frivolous absurd way.

I mostly agree with ole Bertrand. I think we can also use philosophy for entertainment - even in a frivolous absurd way.

They are unusual from an evolutionary perspective since they appear to present false information which could endanger the animal itself. All I can think is that perhaps before we were saturated with culture, and our minds were more limited, they were useful predictive devices. — JupiterJess

I agree with you - and - I think they still are "predictive devices".

I actually enjoy a lot of my dreams more than real life and the more I write them down the more real they appear when I sleep. I hope to gain greater control over them at some point. — JupiterJess

You should try lucid dreaming techniques.

The value and purpose we place on dreams is not totally subjective, given current research in neuroscience (an intersubjective activity). However; it's your prerogative to assign any meaning you like to dreams, consult palm readers and astrologers, partake in seances, etc. if that's part of your "vision quest". For many, however; philosophy is a knowledge quest. — Galuchat

I seem to have hit a cord with you. Your ire seems perked. Perfectly OK. If science is your church – good for you – sometimes it is mine too. However, I do not see all explanations there. For me science is a tool – many times useful – many times inadequate. Especially when considering philosophical issues – many times science is inadequate. Dreams can be understood partially with MRI, EEG, biochemistry, etc. – but I think not substantially. Too many variables – too many wildcards.

What is a vision quest? A quest for knowledge – a search for understanding – an attempt to draw a picture? Philosophy is a picture of the universe we see. Every picture is unique – every person has a different picture/idea of what the world is. Every dream makes a unique statement. Science endeavors to be objective – to pursue repeatable experiments. However, the interpretation of the repeatable data can be different – subjective. Dreams are an area where subjectivity rules. Science can help us with our dreams; but each individual interprets them as we see fit. Dreams can and do make people uneasy – perhaps this is true for you too. It is for me – sometimes.

One thing that seems very apparent – people can be and/or are uncomfortable with dreams. They can sometimes make us nervous.

I'm speaking for the scientific research. If you want to believe something else, it won't change that. — apokrisis

Scientific research with dreams is very nascent. I don’t necessarily want to change your ideas – I want to find out if you can add to mine. Teach us all – make us richer with understanding. I think there is more than one way to look at things – especially dreams.

I have this image of the brain putting bits of memories in specific (real, material) locations in the brain, and then linking them together, so that useful, cohesive information can be found, assembled, and handed up to the conscious mind. But, in the process, odd-ball bits are put next to each other and at that moment, an odd-ball bit of a dream is produced. — Bitter Crank

I think it is so - we are forced to be flexible with our mind data and interpretation. We surf a wave of thought – sometimes we are on top of the wave awake – sometimes we are below the surface dreaming. We move in consciousness and many times we are not sure where we are going.

It's almost like in the absence of sensory input or (what usually passes for) conscious thought, you end up eavesdropping on (other parts/systems of) the brain going about its business, and you don't understand what the hell you're listening to. — Srap Tasmaner

I like this thought. We spy on ourselves. We disconnect from parts of ourselves because it is weird or foreign – but we still observe. We have to because it is us. We try to bring the weirdness into our fold of understanding, but we are not always able to.

In a sense, that's saying there's just nothing for philosophy to do here, and that's fine. — Srap Tasmaner

I do not agree there is nothing for philosophy to do. We use philosophy to create stories – interpret things – define ourselves. We use philosophy to give structure to our lives. The lives we live awake and when we dream. Philosophy is our spirit guide. My thoughts and ideas are like spirits. I am also a spirit when I dream. I use philosophy to guide my vision. I am on a vision quest and I hope you are too.

People find meaning and value in all sorts of experiences, whatever their source.

You don't have to see what apokrisis said as contradicting your view. — Srap Tasmaner

I do not feel contradiction with apokrisis - I view my dreams differently and told him it was his prerogative to see it his way. There can be more than many truths. I really believe it is entirely subjective. There is no grand formula for interpretation and meaning. The value and purpose we place on dreams is totally subjective. Dreams mean what you think they mean – don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Although I do have memories of a few dreams that were quite nice. My desires were instantly gratified, I was powerful and perfect. I'm not talking about sexual stuff either. I was just content with myself. I think one of these positive dreams was of me teaching philosophy to students — darthbarracuda

I think a lot of the function of dreams is wish fulfillment. Also I think we practice in our dreams. I build things and many times I dream of solutions or near solutions to practical problems. Dreams can go outside the bounds of logic and sometimes this is exactly what we need to approach a problem or situation. It may not solve it, but it looks at it in a different way. Different eyes are what we get in dreams.

It makes me wish I did dream more. — darthbarracuda

I mentioned earlier in this thread I took a course in how to record dreams. There are techniques to teach you how to wake up and write them down. Very powerful stuff and useful.

That is why dreams seem a constant chase after meaning. You are still trying to make some kind of narrative sense of what is going on - fitting some tale to it. But as MU points out, Fred is never Fred as every passing image throws up a new scene.

On this view, vivid R.E.M. dreams serve no great psychic purpose. R.E.M. exists to stir up the brain to near waking state so you will be ready to go if something does wake you up. The images are just what the brain has to do - fill in the blanks - because it is designed to generate a constant flow of anticipations and those become vivid when actually answering sensation is absent. — apokrisis

If there is little or no meaning or value in your dreams, then you are absolutely right – for yourself. However, don’t make the mistake of projecting this on to others. Most people find meaning and value in their dreams. If you do not have the eyes to see – OK – that is your prerogative.

I think daydreams can be equated with mind wandering, or creative thinking. — Galuchat

I think it was a very good article. I learned things from it. However, I have some frustration in this thread and others. I can’t get people to respond to my thoughts – the way I want – it makes me sad/angry – what do I do? Should I accuse you of changing the topic, quibbling, dodging the point, of being an idiot. What if I am the idiot? In my dreams and thoughts maybe I am an idiot or you – or both. My dreams and thoughts may wander, but releases something relating to the real world. I am not sure of myself a lot while being awake. I am sure as hell - not sure of myself while dreaming. Dreams are uncertain for a reason – this is important. Life is not certain anywhere - anytime. Dreams help us to handle an uncertain life – with more uncertainty in dreams. Fighting fire with fire – the fire of uncertainty while dreaming.

in my whole life I have never felt what I felt in that dream. It was one simple image of me and a little boy but the feeling was just overwhelming. — TimeLine

I would say this is a truly "Holy" experience - you should treasure it forever.

I don't thing my dreams come from fragments of previous experience. This is completely inconsistent with what I experience in dreaming. What I experience is mostly new experiences in my dreams, with just a few, but very few, fragments of previous experience. So for instance, your example of a dream about a loved one. Let's say the loved on is Fred. — Metaphysician Undercover

There a concept of distorted reality in a dream - right? You are connected to your day (waking) world – reality – via Fred. Although Fred does not look or act like Fred. Do you distort Fred, in order to remake him? Is it your wish – desire – to change him? Or is it just an exercise in fantasy? Or both? Remember you love Fred – that is important. I assert – dreams have a purpose – what is it for Fred? We always want to alter our waking world – we are never satisfied – we are not content. Dreams express our discontentedness – distain – depression – desire – delusions – dependence – deliriousness – defensiveness. Are dreams our attempt to break out of prison? A jailbreak? I don’t act upon every fantasy in my real life – I am constrained. But I do in my dreams. Fred is loved, but also hated – it is complicated – is it not?

You need to "follow your bliss" - as Joseph Campbell advised us all.

Philosophy is not stupid - but many philosophers qualify as such. Most people are terrified of philosophy - that's why they join a church.

It seems to me we have a dialogue of sorts almost continually in our consciousness. Is it coherent? Sometimes it is, but many times it is just fragments. Like little video clips. If I focus – like now – I can control the direction and content of my thoughts. However, I observe myself wandering a lot during the day. Can this understanding tell us something about dreaming? Dreaming seems like wandering – sometimes there is a direction – like sexual dreams. Most of the time my dreams seem unfocused; like my wandering during the daytime. The similarity does not seem coincidence – what do you think?

Math ability and intelligence

Avidya – I must say that you are very high on the scale of people with courage. A very admirable trait which I am sure has served you well.

Speaking of math, as others have noted, it can be learned. It is really just like music. How do you get to Carnegie Hall – practice? Music is fundamentally mathematical. Since it is a self-esteem issue for you – it is important. Start slow with basic arithmetic and work your way up. At some point you will say to yourself – “I am good enough at math”. And then the issue of self-esteem will be gone – in relation to math. If you don’t do anything about it – the issue will fester and probably get worse. However I have confidence in you because you have courage.

I think you will find that your issues of self-esteem will always be with you. Human beings in my view are insecure for many reasons. We all have issues of self-esteem – forever. Best regards and good luck.

I like your twist – perhaps we could say – an exploration of explanations. Or explanation of explorations.

OK - now I get it - thanks.

Philosophy is an explanation. Philosophy provided answers to questions and problems. It also presents problems and questions. It is a systematic (hopefully) inquiry into the nature of things. Philosophy try’s to sort “things” out. Philosophy is the first science. All other sciences and methods of inquiry come from philosophy. When humans first began to talk – they employed philosophy. Philosophy is the vehicle we ride to a destination.

Granting that we are all insecure to some degree about some things, I can't see what advantage treating this universal fact as central could have for philosophical inquiry. We can never free ourselves from all fear. I do agree that it is a good idea to try to become free from concerns about inconsequential anxieties, for example how we appear to others, what others think about us, and so on. But I think that is a bit of a side issue, taking care of which perhaps just frees us up to a greater extent than otherwise for more fruitful inquiries. — John

I do not think you clearly hear what I am saying about insecurity. Whether we address our fears and concerns in therapy, church or wherever is not my main point. I am saying that insecurity drives our philosophical inquiry. I am saying that insecurity, in whatever form it manifests, is our motivation to reason in therapy, attend a church or for some – have a holy thought. Each individual reacts to their insecurity in their own way. You seem to be suggesting that I should want to free of my insecurity and anxieties. I don’t think it is possible – and – I do not want to free of it. I think it is a blessing.

But if we are driven to find rational explanations, then we need to find an acceptable mode or system of thought that supports the feeling. — John

I was very clear of the “acceptable mode or system of thought that supports the feeling” of holiness. For me it is profound sense of insignificance and insecurity in my universe. I arrive at this rational position, to me, by way of observation and reasoning. I have given some clear reasons why I think this way. I am not asking that you accept my reasons – I am merely stating them. I say what is true for me; I also observe others and make assessments of them. I hear that you are not comfortable with my thoughts on insecurity and perhaps your insignificant-ness – but that does not change my point of view. In fact, it further reinforces it. These are my reasons; do you understand my point of view? I have additional reasons to support my spiritual point of view. I do not think they are conventional and/or widely accepted. I would be glad to share them with you; if you are inclined to hear them?

Sure, but all the examples you give here are due to social conditioning I would say. — John

John – I respectfully disagree. And I think in this one statement we can see your equivocation. Does a broken water pipe make you insecure? Does a broken water pipe come from social conditioning? No, a broken water pipe has little or nothing to do with our social world. It is a force of nature that we have no control over. It just happens and when it does we become insecure. I do generalize about the infinite forces of nature, that affect us all, that make us nervous. We need insecurity, as much as we need air, to propel and motivate us to find solutions to our problems. I would also like to add that I equivocate too because I am insecure. Insecurity is our friend – our coach.

And just how is it that you have earned the right to speak for most people? And you accuse me of righteousness! — John

I am righteous in my own eyes, John, why would I want to be otherwise? We are all seeking answers and righteousness because we are all insecure. That’s why I am here on this forum and I presume the same for you and everyone else. I think it is worthy to question yourself and others in an attempt to refine ones thinking. People go to church, which is a type of therapy, to get answer to difficult questions. We go to a psychotherapist to help realign our thinking – how is a church any different? We need therapy because we are not sure – insecurity. We are all insecure, but we make different choices in how we address this universal problem.

All I've been advocating is a disposition of reverence towards life: including nature and humanity. I started out referring to it as a "sense of the holy". — John

I totally agree with your concept of a "sense of the holy". I think consciousness is a divine gift. I cannot prove this statement, but I can feel it. That is enough for me. I believe with this gift we are obligated to examine ourselves, universe – everything. When I am mindful, I feel my holiness and what has been given me – I am profoundly grateful. I am thankful for my insignificance and insecurity because it leads me to holy thoughts – I am thankful.