t I think a citizen force or militia like the Black Panther Party might be a good idea to keep a watchful eye on the interactions between the state and their community. — NOS4A2

Agreed with this, but sanctioned by the local government.

So I am going to throw all my toys out of the pram, and all your toys out of your pram, and every other bugger's toys out of their prams, until everyone altogether decides that this will not pass. This is war. Don't act surprised when Poland gets invaded. — unenlightened

Everyone might end up on deciding they don't want you throwing their toys out the pram. It's a good way to create a backlash.

The cop was just a stupid bully. He didnt mean to kill Floyd. — frank

And being a cop is attractive to bullies. They need to be screened out of the hiring process. So does anyone with ties to racist groups.

Because of ONE man who KNEW very well what he was doing and what it would cause. White supremacists are probably laughing their ass off and high fiving eachother right now while minorities continue to march around and get arrested instead of furthering their education and becoming that cop.. that politician.. that professor.. that prosecutor.. whatever position it is that inequality resides in. — Outlander

Are you suggesting Derek Chauvin was maybe part of a plot to start off a race war? I have heard that some of the rioters are also alt-right, looking to delegitimize the protests.

Sounds like a plot from the Watchmen tv show that came out in the fall.

The latter - happening in this thread and elsewhere in the media - is infinitely worse than the former. — StreetlightX

Infinitely worse than destroying things that have nothing to do with the police? What kind of moral argument is that? Do you not see just how extreme your position is?

China's economic system is capitalist now. And they have a large middle class because they switched.

about the actual issues. — StreetlightX

Capitaliism?

Hell no. — NOS4A2

It's absurd that the socialists in this thread thinks there's a chance in hell of that.

I can sympathize with the anger, but violence will will lead to the same outcome: conquest and coercion of one group over another. — NOS4A2

That's often what happens. And you run the risk of some general taking over and becoming dictator.

In this case, an actual revolution has the cops start using real ammunition with the military enforcing martial law. I don't care how many guns Americans own, it won't be enough against the military. Plus the fact that the group with the most guns isn't on the left.

That and most of us don't want a bloody revolution. We don't want to see cities bombed, people shot, and food supplies being disrupted. Nor do we want a communist system replacing the current one. That's a fantasy.

Like the Boston tea party - pointless destruction by opponents of the rule of law. — unenlightened

Arguably, it was. And for all the great principles the US espoused as part of that revolution, America's history is more violent than Canada's. Violence begets more violence, and even when you win, it sets more precedence for violent solutions in the future.

You can justify violence, destruction of property, — NOS4A2

More than that, in this thread anyway. People dying and starving to overturn the system. And doing whatever you want since the social contract is voided.

Hopefully, this is a very minority opinion. I don't believe most protesters support it. They just want to see police held accountable, so they stop murdering people.

NOS, by burning down a TGI Fridays you're fighting capitalism which in turn helps dismantle systemic racism. It's a nuanced argument - — BitconnectCarlos

It is. And apparently if you don't understand that nuance, then you're supporting police violence.

Very nuanced indeed. Also extremist rhetoric.

Tay Anderson wants the white rioters to stop.

Tay Anderson wanted Friday's protest against police brutality in Denver to be peaceful.

"We asked people throughout the day, please do not deface property, please do not destroy stuff, because we're not asking you to do that," Anderson, a Denver school board director and activist, told BuzzFeed News.

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/0PCUzvHy/black-protesters-who-want-to-demonstrate-peacefully-are-calling-out-white-people-who-instigate-violence]

o it's exactly how you post. — StreetlightX

And you can't tolerate dissent.

But okay, if that is a poor arguing technique on my own, I should work on it. However, fuck you for accusing me of bad faith. I argue what I think, right or wrong.

You're an extremist.

It does with you. You never follow up your objections. you simply throw out new ones if the last one didn't work. It's rubbish. — StreetlightX

That's bullshit. You just don't like people who disagree with you.

If you were genuinely interested and not just throwing out bad faith objections, maybe you could educate yourself even minimally. — StreetlightX

You can't help yourself, can you? Disagreement doesn't mean bad faith. Unless you're an extremist.

But thanks for the videos, I haven't watched them yet.

Or millions currently out of work in the U.S. — 180 Proof

The pandemic is the fault of the greedy rich? What was the unemployment rate before Covid in the US?

Tell that the billions who live on less the $2 USD per day. — 180 Proof

They will do better as they have more access to jobs and global markets. The trend in global poverty is going down. There's also a lot of factors at play across the globe. Sometimes those have been failed communist states or bloody civil wars where the winner installs their own greedy regime.

@StreetlightX Yes, society can get much more extreme.

They do. The problem is that it's expanding upwards, not downwards. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. — Michael

That is a problem, but the standard of living also goes up across the board over time. Capitalism's excesses need to be corrected for.

So why not more progressive taxation and larger inheritance taxes with better safety nets? No reason to throw out the baby that's raised the standard of living an incredible amount over the past several centuries for a system that has failed to prove itself.

Wealth isn’t a zero-sum game. Wealth is created and constantly expands. — NOS4A2

i don't think socialists understand that.

They're not doing it to win the moral argument, they're doing it to stop the police killing them — Michael

I agree with that. It's the looting and burning and things spiraling out of control with people getting hurt. That's on the police as well as the rioters.

My comment was directed at those in this thread, not protesters.

The sticking point is what such belief is... what it consists of. — creativesoul

True. What does cognitive science say about animal intelligence? Would it be the same for us, plus the linguistic ability where we translate beliefs to language? Or do we internalize the language as beliefs?

Does a bear shit in the woods? — StreetlightX

I don't know comrade. Tell me.

So far neither Bitwhatsheface nor Marches seem to give shit other than to suck the balls of Target. Would seem to be joining in. — StreetlightX

Sounds like a logical fallacy.

Society was already burning, you're just too blind to see it. — StreetlightX

You mean you're itching for the greedy, evil capitalistic system to burn. The thing that's the cause of all evil in the world.

I think when people are faced with injustice, winning the moral argument is the least of their concern. — Michael

And that's how all kinds of bad shit gets justified during a revolution.

What they want is to not be killed by the police. — Michael

How does arguing on here for a socialist revolution do that?

I don't know what the fuck side you're talking about. — StreetlightX

The one that wants to burn society to the ground versus the one that doesn't.

So fix that with more dying and starving?

Maybe there's a better way.

Your side lost the moral argument.

Enough. — 180 Proof

So you're willing to have people die and starve. Does it mater who they are?

It's possible to do anything you want. — StreetlightX

Or argue for it.

Because the only reason to not loot Target before was because you were upholding society's contract. [But] there is no contract if law and people in power don't uphold their end of it". — StreetlightX

Also because I think it's wrong. But let's replace looting Target with looting X, or committing crime Y against target X. So if the social contract is voided, why not just do whatever?

That's to say, I don't think considerations of corporate finances outweigh those of social justice. (And by the way, none of this argument relies on the idea of the overthrow of capitalism). — Baden

I can agree with that, but only if it's effective and doesn't hurt people in the community who need to work and shop there, beyond an inconvenience. Like impoverishing the community if businesses move away and the local economy can't replace it.

Now you're getting it. — StreetlightX

How many people are you willing to have die and starve for that to happen?

Are you suggesting that propositions somehow exist prior to language? — creativesoul

I'm suggesting there's more to belief than being able to express it in language.

The only thing extreme is the utter shitness of the a society in which George Floyds happen regularly and when all people like you can moan about are property. — StreetlightX

The only extreme? Like there is no worse way for society to go?

Well shit, let's burn it all to the ground and start over.

Good, 'cause I'm not. — StreetlightX

Unfortunately, people who think like you do, as far as the extremism goes.

You make some good points, but then throw it away with the extremist stuff. I think your approach to society would be worse than what it is now. But some reforms within the current system along those lines would be good, in moderation.

I wasn't responding to your arguments. But I added a paragraph on what I think needs to happen, somehow.

Got anything else to say? — Baden

Yeah, I don't think a socialist overthrow of capital is going to solve the problem of racism. A nation-wide reform of police departments from top to bottom is a good start, though.

Cops with prior incidents need to be reviewed and fired or charged as necessary. There needs to be better and longer training in de=escalation. And the psychopathic power hungry ones need to be weeded out of the hiring process.

Also, further investigation into white supremacy groups inside the police. They need to be removed.