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Ok, first idealism. As I said idealism is false because it cannot explain the coherence in the reality that we perceive. Let me give you one example: Let's assume that you now put the cup of coffee that you just sipped from on the table. If you want to drink more coffee you know where the cup is, you get it and drink from it. For example, the cup of coffee just does not disappear. It is where you left it. You then approach it with your hand and grab its handle with your fingers. Move it toward your mouth and drink more coffee as you please. So we are dealing with a set of ideas, what we perceive, but there is a coherence between them. Idealism cannot explain the coherence in reality therefore it is false. I have more examples but this one is sufficient to deny idealism.

And now, physicalism. Physicalism looks correct at first look since things are lawful within physicalism. So for example the cup of coffee is where you left it since reality is lawful. That, lawfulness, is however its weakness as well as I illustrate later. The first issue that physicalism suffers from is the existence of experience. Experience cannot be denied yet it cannot be explained in physicalism. The second issue is related to the correlation between mental and physical. For example, when you decide to have more coffee your hand moves appropriately. You then grab the handle of the cup with your finger, then move it toward your mouth, and drink as much as coffee you please. So we see fantastic correlations between mental and physical all the time. The problem is if physicals are lawful then they move according to the laws of physics. There is however no room left for mental to intervene since accepting that mental has a causal power leads to overdetermination which is not acceptable. So you have to choose, either mental has no causal power which means that you cannot explain the fantastic correlation between mental and physical, or mental has causal power which is contrary because overdetermination is not acceptable.

I'm just not following -- why is situation (b) but not situation (a) an illusion? — J

Because we are talking about options. If I present you with one ball, there is only one option available whereas in another case, when you are presented with two balls there are two options.

Idealism is false since it cannot explain coherence in the ideas that we perceive. Physicalism also is false since it cannot explain mental phenomena and the correlation between mental phenomena and physical ones.

I am not talking about the decision here yet since I didn't ask you which ball you pick from the two. I am saying that we can distinguish between situations (a) and (b) so saying that situation (b) is an illusion, what hard determinists say is nonsensical!

Sorry, could you clarify? What does "realize between two situations" mean? — J

Situation (a): I present you with one ball and ask you how many balls you see. Your answer is one for sure.
Situation (b): I present you with two balls and ask you how many balls you see. Your answer is two for sure.

Could you realize the difference between the situation (a) and (b)?

As Hegel says in the lesser logic, you must think of the continuous mixed with the discrete in order to understand either one. — Gregory

That is correct. Any real number has decimal and integer parts each is a set of digits, 0 to 9 for example. Digits are of course discrete while the number is continuous.

The continuous is illogical I say. — Gregory

I don't think so. I already presented two arguments against the existence of the gap.

I am not talking about decisions here but only the existence of options. Could you realize between two situations in which you are presented with one ball or two balls?

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Have you ever been in a maze? If yes then you realize that options are real when you reach a fork. The options are however a manifestation of neural processes and they are deterministic. Therefore, you could have options in a deterministic world. How we realize options as a result of neural processes is not well understood yet!

Great! You at last agree that reductive physicalism is possible. — Relativist

Sure I agree with this. :wink:

Rewrite this while Incorporating the mind's "vertical causality. — Relativist

I don't understand what you want me to do. I explicitly mentioned that the Mind experiences and causes a string. By this, I certainly mean vertical causation.

OK, that gives a continuity for electrons consistent with a form of perdurantism. But that's a particle, a simple object. Now consider a complex organism, like MoK. There's not a fixed set of particles that comprise comprise you, so you can't base it on particle continuity. I suggest you accept perdurantism for this, instead of essentialism - it would be more consistent. — Relativist

An object that is made of parts also can be explained and its motion is continuous as well. First, think of an object that is at rest for the sake of simplicity. Its parts are in constant motion and these motions are continuous as I discussed earlier. But parts of the object move in such a way that they persist to exist in the location of the object, let's call these motions M1={m1,m2,...}, where m1 is the motion of the first part, m2 is the motion of the second part, etc. Now we can discuss a moving object. The difference between a moving object and a static object is that parts of the static object have motion M1 only whereas the parts of a moving object have another motion M2. So, the motions of parts of a moving object are N=M1+M2 such that N={n1,n2,...} where n1=m1+M2 is the motion of the first part, n2=m2+M2 is the motion of the second part, etc. I have to say that the object in different instants of time is not the same even if it is at rest since its parts are in constant motion. The object just seems to be the same.

Discrete doesn't get lost in itself but takes the step further — Gregory

If the space is discrete then it means that there is a gap between two points in space. The gap is the absence of anything or nothing. So there are two arguments here against the existence of the gap: 1) The motion has to be discrete if there is a gap. But discrete motion at least within physicalism is not possible since a particle that is subject to motion and exists in the first point cannot possibly cause another particle in the second point because of the gap. 2) If the gap is nothing then two points must be immediate.

It would be possible for the thinking to exist without a thinker. — Kranky

Thinking is a complex topic, but we can for sure say that it exists. Thinking, however, is a coherent mental phenomenon. To develop a thought one needs to constantly retrieve memories of thoughts accumulated in the past, and work on thoughts to produce a new thought. Thoughts therefore must be memorized somewhere. Idealism cannot provide an answer for where thoughts are stored and how they are retrieved when it is appropriate. Therefore, idealism is false.

Even if my own existence cannot be proven, can awareness/experience be proven for certain? — Kranky

Experience for sure exists and everybody agrees with its existence.

Right now, at minimum, there is a belief that I am existing, a belief that I am typing this post.
I might not actually be typing this post, nor am I certain to exist.
But it is certain that there is a belief that I exist. — Kranky

The reality is coherent. Therefore, Idealism is false since it cannot account for the coherence. Therefore, you are a person who is typing your thoughts. By person, I mean that you have a body and at least two minds, so-called the conscious and subconscious mind.

There is no problem when you do it with numbers. The trouble is when infinite digits are linked to spatial slices — Gregory

Well, it depends if space is continuous or discrete. Which one do you pick?

Each digit represents a slice of space hence infinite space. — Gregory

I am talking about the decimal part of a number. Consider a very small number with many 0 digits and a 1 at the end, like, 0.0...01, where the number of 0 digits is M. If you divide this number by 2 you get, 0.0...05 where the number of 0 digits is M+1. You can do this forever.

Of all the arguments i've amassed over the years, the one that says "something can't be discrete because that implies space which implies parts/slices, and so the descent" has to go. — Gregory

Space itself is continuous. I don't understand what you are talking about here.

There has to be a basic unit. — Gregory

There are basic units for length for example.

This treats strings as fundamental, consistent with reductive physicalism. — Relativist

Correct. But strings are not the only fundamental entity. The string is a one-dimensional Brane. In principle, you can have a d-dimensional Brane which moves in D-dimensional spacetime, where D>d.

But all these "laws of physics" are a consequence of the fundamental laws of strings. — Relativist

Correct.

There is no particle-particle continuity. Each particle is brand new, with no history and no future. — Relativist

There is. I already illustrated it. A stationary electron is a vibrating string, let's call this vibration V1. The string related to a moving electron has another vibration mode due to the motion of the electron, let's call this mode of vibration V2. The Mind experiences both vibrations of the string, V1 and V2, at time t0 and as a result, causes another string at time t1 at a position that is dictated by V2 while keeping V1 the same. The history of the string is held in the subjective time. Its future depends on V2 and the position of the string in the future. So the process of motion of the string is continuous.

Makes no sense. The particle at t0 has properties; this particle (with its properties) is annihilated a t1. A new particle exists at t1 that has the same properties, but it's not the same particle. — Relativist

It makes sense if you accept that the Mind experiences the string with V1 and causes another string later with the same mode of vibration namely V1. And the string is not annihilated in my theory but just created in the immediate future. So the history of the string is preserved in the subjective time.

Every electron in the universe has the same intrinsic properties. So when a specific electron at t0 is replaced by a "duplicate" at t1, what maked this particular electron the same identity? See my second picture and description, below. — Relativist

It is V1.

All you claims are just vague allusions. The most common bases are: 1) essentialism - which associates an identity with an essence (a subset of properties that are necessary and sufficient for constituting an individual identity) — Relativist

It could be essentialism. For example, look at this.

2) perdurance: an identity consisting of a connected series of temporal parts.

Because you embrace identity of the indiscernibles, you don't have the essentialist option. So you need some form of perdurantism, but you need to define what connects the temporal parts. The problem is that you have no direct causal connection between temporal parts. Here's a depiction of what you seem to be claiming with your "vertical causation": — Relativist

I already mentioned that a part of our brain is hardwired which means it does not change over time. The other part is subject to change always. It is due to this part of the brain that we can memorize new things over time, basically most of our past experiences. The memories however are held in synapses. You might find this article interesting, especially the section about memory.

The mind is creating electron/brain/body at each instant of time, with no direct connection between the "temporal parts". There's an indirect connection through mind, but the mind is simultaneously recreating every electron/brain/body. Let's focus on electrons: there's a universe full of electrons coming into existence at each instant of time. Here's a depiction of 3 electrons (electX,electY, electZ): — Relativist

The Mind as I discussed above keeps continuity in motion of each electron, quark, etc. Therefore, It keeps continuity in the motion of any object.

ElectX@t0->mind->ElectX@t1 is indistinquishable from
ElectX@t0->mind->ElectY@t1 — Relativist

Electrons are distinguishable to the Mind since each electron has a specific location in space.

Why must motion be infinitily divided? — Gregory

If it is not then there is a situation in which the motion becomes discrete. This is against the continuum hypothesis. Therefore, any continuous motion no matter how small is infinitely divisible.

How can you fit infinity in the bounds of anything finite? — Gregory

I am not proposing that I fit an infinity in something finite but saying that any finite distance no matter how small can be divided infinitely. That is what digits are about.

You have to deal with infinities if you accept that motion is continuous.

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In classical theism, God does not suffer. — Gregory

So classical theism is false. If God could be happy then He could be unhappy too.

What accounts for this being possible? — Relativist

Within string theory, a string has infinite modes of vibration available. Each mode is related to specific particles and forces, in other words, to specific laws of nature.

IMO, something must exist to account for non-actual possibilities. — Relativist

That is beyond the scope of string theory. You cannot find an answer to that in string theory. In string theory, any specific vibration of the string is related to a specific particle and force, hence specific laws of physics.

The alternative is to assume everything that is logically possible, is actually (metaphysically) possible. — Relativist

Our universe is vast and infinite in space. The laws of physics may be different in different regions of it. The multiverse although it is hypothetical could also be true so we could have different universes with different laws of physics.

And I've explained multiple times that this entails an absence of continuity. — Relativist

The act of causation is such that the new particle is created at time t1 in the vicinity of the former particle that exists at time t0 so continuity is preserved.

Duplication is not the same thing as preservation. — Relativist

The duplication is such that the intrinsic properties of a particle are held.

You have still not accounted for identity over time. Even if we pretend duplication = preservation, you haven't identified what makes brain at t1 the same as the brain at t0. — Relativist

I discussed this in depth. You can find my explanation here and here. The brain is not identical in the different instant of time since the relational properties of its parts are changing all the time.

Per your account, they are not identical. The same is true for MoK's body as a whole: it's constantly changing, so it's properties are changing - so it's not strictly identical from one instant to the next. — Relativist

I don't understand how that could be a relevant objection to what I am arguing here, the OP. We know by fact that the relational properties of parts of a person change all the time even if we endorse physicalism. So, that is a valid question for physicalists as well. Do you have any answer to the question you posed yourself? Anyhow, I addressed your questions to the best I could.

Either the Mind is making a choice, or it is random. Why call this object a "mind" if it isn't making choices? — Relativist

I am trying to be minimalistic in my definition of the Mind. If I realize that there is a phenomenon that cannot be addressed with the current definition then I change the definition.

Not if reductive physicalism is true. — Relativist

What does reductive physicalism have to do with string theory?

You deny this, but you still need to account for the contingency: what makes those other possibilities possible? — Relativist

I am saying that each vibrational mode is related to a possible particle and force. Why we have such physical laws rather than another one is beyond the scope of string theory.

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My position is that absolute truth is Freedom, Will. — Gregory

What do you mean by this?

That can be the answer to the problem of pain. If God is sitting up there infinitely happy as we suffer, trying to perfect ourselves, how does that reflect a beautiful world? — Gregory

How do you know that God is infinitely happy while we are suffering?

I think we make the world what it is in some sense, "positing" everything and each other, as Fichte said.. Why is there pain? There is no reason really. — Gregory

Perhaps there is a reason. Without pain, we could not possibly evolve.

It's just free. — Gregory

What do you mean by "it" here?

So the Ideas guide the Will, but the Will is in charge. — Gregory

What do you mean by "Ideas" and "Will" with capital letters?

"Law of nature" = an aspect of physical reality; an aspect of the way the world actually is (whether we know it or not)
"Law of physics" = a theory (developed by physicists). It corresponds to a law of nature if it is true.

F=G*(m1*m2)/r^2 is a law of physics. It was assumed to be true for many years. Strictly speaking, it is not exactly true, so it is not a law of nature.

General relativity is a law of physics that seems to be true; if so then it is a law of nature. — Relativist

Ok, I got what you mean with the laws of nature. If so, then there are an infinite number of the laws of nature.

Therefore, as I said, properties are not "preserved", as you had said. Instead, they are duplicated. So you were wrong when you said: "The intrinsic properties are preserved by time" — Relativist

I have already explained this twice. The string's specific vibration mode defines the related particle's intrinsic properties. The Mind experiences this mode of vibration and, as a result, creates another copy of the string with the same mode of vibration at another point in space. Therefore, the intrinsic properties of the particle are preserved.

You just now came into existence, having been vertically caused by the Mind. There's a "you" that came into existence 1 minute ago, 5 days ago, and even one nanosecond ago. Nothing is preserved from one moment to the next.

Nothing connects all these "you's". Nothing accounts for a preserved identity, since there just a continuous series of MoKs who come into existence ex nihilo with no causal relation between them.

The current you is analogous to the projected image of a single frame of a film. One frame doesn't cause the next; there's just an illusion of motion. — Relativist

The intrinsic properties of my parts are preserved as I discuss above. The relational properties of my parts are subject to change all the time and that is necessary since otherwise I could not have biological properties which parts are changing and other parts unchanging.

You assume a mind is choosing among the "choices". — Relativist

I just said that the Mind experiences and causes. How did we end up with such a universe with these specific laws of physics? I don't know and I don't think anybody knows that.

A reductive physicalist believes the observed laws of physics are manifestations of more fundamental law. Consider string theory: it can account for 10^500 3-dimensional "brane universes", each with a different "physics", but all are accounted for by the string theory. — Relativist

Correct. But string theory is only one theory among many other possible theories since in string theory one assumes that the fundamental entity is a string but that fundamental entity could have any geometrical form.

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How can will be without thoughts? — Gregory

The will is aware of thoughts made by the intellect. It can stop a thought or let it go. By the will being blind I mean that it does not know where a thought leads to.

Have you considered Platonic Forms? — Gregory

I agree with Plato about the Froms, what I call the Absolute Truth.

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Thinking is based on faith? — Gregory

Yes. When we think about a subject we have faith that the idea we are trying to develop may be correct. It is however through the processes of thinking that we may reach a correct conclusion.

Hegel said that in his latter lectures on the proofs for God. — Gregory

Interesting. I didn't know that.

Will has control over the intellect though, which is one reason i think the intellect is not the superior faculty... — Gregory

Correct.

Will is never blind. There is a certain innate knowledge pure will by itself without input from the intellect. — Gregory

I don't think that there is such a thing as innate knowledge. What we call thinking is a trial and error process. We take one root and proceed. It might be fruitful or we might reach a dead end without any conclusion. Therefore, will is blind.

I was thinking faith was of the will, not the intellect. — Gregory

The act of intellect is due existence of faith. Persistence in intellectual activity is due to the will though.

:100: :up:

To me, faith refers to a mental phenomenon, a thought for example, that can be right or wrong.

I distinguished between the laws of nature (which are ontological) and laws of physics (epistemological; best guesses based on available data). Newton's law of gravity (which implied instantaneous action at a distance) is (or was) a law of physics - and was never a law of nature. — Relativist

I don't understand your distinction between the laws of nature and the laws of physics here. To me, the laws of physics refer to regularities in physical processes only whereas the laws of nature encompass all regularities including biological, chemical, etc. processes as well. I think that physical processes are fundamental and can explain biological, chemical, etc. processes though. What I am trying to say here is that the laws of physics are not universal because there are an infinite number of different candidates available.

So there may be different laws of physics (what we would have guessed at) but they would be due to the same, fundamental laws of nature - assuming reductionism (as I do). — Relativist

You have to explain what you mean by the laws of nature then. Could you give an example of it?

On this semantical account, you would apparently deny there are laws of nature, because all causation is "vertical"- a consequence of the universal mind. — Relativist

I cannot deny the laws of nature as I don't understand what it is yet.

You could accept "laws" of physics as instrumentalist descriptions of observed behavior, but you have to be open to the universal mind choosing to operate differently. — Relativist

That is possible if we accept that the Mind has the capacity to decide. One however can only decide when there are options available for the decision. The options are the realization of two states in which both states are accessible. If you have no option then you have to deal with your only option and act accordingly.

That universal mind is remembering the properties and creating them afresh. That is not an ontological preservation; it is a duplication. — Relativist

Yes, it is a duplication. That is what I mean by causation/creation.

This is inconsistent with your claim that the universal mind recreates your brain ex nihilo at every instant.

You still haven't explained what YOU are. You just began to exist, ex nihilo. — Relativist

What am I? I am a person with a body and at least two minds (with a small "m" rather than a capital "M"). A mind is a substance that exists in space, opposite to the Mind that is Omnipresent in space. There are at least two minds in MOK, one I call the subconscious mind and another one the conscious mind. I cannot tell what the subconscious mind experiences since I don't have access to its mental contents. I can only talk about the conscious mind and its experiences. The conscious mind perceives many ideas, such as memorized thoughts, psychological time, perception of a simulation of reality, etc. from the subconscious mind. It has very little memory so-called working memory which is registered in a part of the brain temporarily. The main duty of the conscious mind is to construct new thoughts with the help of the part of the brain that it has access to. The conscious mind does not directly produce thoughts though. The thoughts are the byproduct of neurobiological activity in a part of the brain. The conscious mind just perceives thoughts. It however can decide when there is a conflict of interests. For example, you might have two different thoughts and you are not sure how to proceed because of the conflict of thoughts. That is when the conscious mind comes into play and decides which thought to be considered and which thought to be discarded. Both thoughts are however registered in the subconscious mind for further analysis in the future. It is through the constant exchange of information between the subconscious mind and conscious mind that we can develop coherent thoughts, write a sentence, learn new activities, etc.

Exactly! It's interactions with its environment are clear but its locality or other such properties which are not merely tagged on by virtue of our measurement devices or senses is but a different matter. — substantivalism

The particle's location is well defined, as one can see its slow motion in a cloud chamber. I am not interested in the other properties of particles here.

You agree with them because the collapse of a wave function is an open problem and whether an electron is all there at the screen or not depends on the analogue model you use (or interpretation if you like that word better).

Whether it's the Cheshire cat collapse of Copenhagen or something more extended as in Bohm wave theory or even more peculiar and non-precise as in a full fledged quantum field theory. — substantivalism

I think De Broglie–Bohm's interpretation of quantum mechanics is the right one since it is paradox-free.

Many interpretations actually deny just that. Some say an electron travels all the possible feynmenn paths and others ascribe an indisputable extension out to infinity for an electron seeing its wave function as a fundamental part of it. — substantivalism

The Feynman path integral formulation although is a very strong formulation for calculation is incoherent. If we accept an electron as an entity then it cannot travel in different paths with different weights. The same for particle-wave duality in the Copenhagen interpretation. All problems are resolved if we accept the De Broglie–Bohm interpretation as a correct interpretation of quantum mechanics. The particle in this interpretation has a definite position in space in terms of time.

Well you are not going to find those in the atomic or sub-atomic as those are where the least amount of agreement is localized. — substantivalism

They are localized according to observation, cloud chamber slow-motion for example. Physicists think that elementary particles have no definitive position because they cannot explain diffraction patterns in the double-slit experiment by considering an electron as a particle only. I don't understand why they resist De Broglie–Bohm's interpretation. I know that Feynman's path integral formulation is an easy and elegant way of calculating physical properties and functions but that does not mean that it is a correct interpretation.

When you say these states X and Y are they in the past/present/future respectively? — substantivalism

X exists at now and Y exists at the immediate future.

As a naive presentist would say, if any of these states are in the future/past then they are made up fictions which correspond to nothing. Past things or future things don't exist but we can play the game of pretending they are real but imagination is not coincident with the real. If they are present then they exist in an intuitive fashion but there isn't a different 'real' state to compare its change to as no other state exists to compare it to. What now? — substantivalism

Presentism is false since it cannot explain change and cause and effect. Accepting presentism means that cause and effect exist at now. Cause and effect however cannot lay at the same point in time since the cause and effect become simultaneous and there cannot be any change therefore if we accept that the cause exists at now then the effect must exist at the immediate future.

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