That is if you define vice as the temptation to do wrong. But couldn’t vice be defined as giving in to that temptation, in opposition to virtue which itself implies refusing to follow it? — Hello Human

My perspective of these things has changed enough that I am uncertain of how to respond and need to reflect on, "vice" and "virtue".

This does bring to mind however, polarities.

I will return here to this if I reach a point where I feel I have a clearer understanding of these things. I don't want to respond to anything willy nilly.

So those qualities are present in the mind but they aren’t necessarily expressed? — Hello Human

I wouldn't say the mind, exactly. My understanding is that the mind is one part of the whole, attempting to interpret, understand and communicate that which is. I would say that because the truth is within us, that those qualities are also either being actively expressed or they are not.

So if I understand well, wisdom finds the virtue and allows it to be expressed ? — Hello Human

My understanding is that truth already within us. The wisdom is the unraveling of truth and seeing it in greater clarity, as is reflected in our ability to see reality clearly without illusion. This happens through experiences and increased awareness. Virtue is the underlining quality, the expression of the action which aligns with that truth.

I still don’t understand what « authenticity » means when talking about virtue, could you please explain some more? — Hello Human

In reflection, I see that my words may not very well represent my meaning.

When I speak of that which is authentic, I mean that which is truth. I understand virtue to be doing that which is in alignment with truth.

But what if you did not have fear when going in that unfamiliar direction? Would it be courageous anyway? — Hello Human

Unless someone's brain is functioning in a way that is atypical, it is a human response when facing the unknown to feel fear.

If someone is able to move in any unknown direction without feeling fear, then I would not consider that to be courageous. I would however consider that to be unusual.

Thank you for the reply!

I am reaching my limit for being in optimal mental capacity for now but I'll be sure to return to this later.

Have a balanced day :)

Thank you for the reply!

I am reaching my limit for being in optimal mental capacity for now but I'll be sure to return to this later.

Have a balanced day :)

So far, so very well done!
I've a lot of scattered ramblings and could probably do with more self-discipline. However, now of a certain age and mental decline, I'm now in relaxation mode. I come here for such as this and a bit of fun.
Really good to talk with you... — Amity

A great pleasure to share with you as well!

Till next time :)

So many questions. More 'distractions' ?! :wink: — Amity

Heh.Thank you for the questions!

I'm reaching that point of needing to return to these in another moment.

Take care! :)

Re: nuggets of wisdom 'earned'. Is that a typo? Or a karma cause-and-effect thing? — Amity

I use the word earned because any wisdom that I have personally gained feels as though there was an exchange which took place. A loss, pain, a sacrifice, etc.

I am uncertain of karma beyond the potential of it being a possibility, however I do think that there is a balance in the universe. Whatever that is called, or how it functions exactly, is beyond me.

Plenty of thoughts to mull over :sparkle: — Amity

An abundance here for me to mull over. Lots to digest and reflect on. I sense a potential conflict of ideas within myself to evaluate.

Thank you!

I'll be sure to quote ya once I'm ready to move forward with my responses on these.

If there is a photograph, there must be a camera, but a camera cannot photograph itself, only another camera or a reflection of a camera Thus a camera cannot obtain an image of itself, but proposes that image 'beyond experience', or proposes itself as the unphotgaphable source of photos. One might say that awareness is a virtual image of the unseen seer. One cannot grasp it, but again one cannot dispense with it.

But perhaps I am wrong about this; perhaps someone can describe the experience of awareness. I await with eager anticipation a better explanation. — unenlightened

Love this metaphor. It really brings the image of what you trying to show us into view ;)

This brings to mind for me the idea of "looking for that which is looking." The camera or the looker, can not see itself. It can only see an image or a refection, in the visual field.

My thought is, if we can't see ourselves, what does it mean to feel and sense ourselves? I wonder if this is part of the reason why we have evolved to become so acutely aware of others viewing us. I understand that some of this is just our innate sense of survival instinct. We know scientifically about the observer effect in quantum physics. I've always found it interesting that we tend to behave similarly to quantum particles in this sense, as social animals.

Have you heard of the philosopher Douglas Harding, by chance? He talks about the, "headless way".

You may find this relevant to the track that you are on.

See -

https://www.headless.org/on-having-no-head.htm#:~:text=Douglas%20Harding%20The%20best%20day%20of%20my%20life%E2%80%94my,it%20in%20all%20seriousness%3A%20I%20have%20no%20head.

You mentioned 'journalism'. Your writing and thoughts have been well-informed and expressed.
Do you write elsewhere? Articles? Forums? Magazines? Essays?
Do you forage for ideas on places like this as research for a particular writing project? — Amity

Yikes. That was a typo. No journalism here. I meant to say that I journal. I use personal writing as a tool. It's a rather powerful tool for me that I've utilized since I was a pre-teen.

I do have some personal projects that I am developing and perhaps if I get around to returning to school one day, I'll dive into more. My education is nothing special or noteworthy.

I keep fairly busy as is, as mother of two boys working full time. I do work to maintain a balanced and simple life, so I only select a few things to channel my energy into.

Writing, reading (almost exclusively non- fiction - can't recall the last time I read a fiction novel) and having these kinds of conversations are my preferred ways to spend my time when I'm not attending the basic needs of myself and my family.

I wrote poetry when I was younger but my writing developed to be more philosophical in nature pretty quickly. I still write poetry. I have ideas, thoughts and various writings scattered about my life but I haven't put the real work into formulating anything constructive yet. Perhaps one day, when my kiddos are a bit older.

I think I'm just here to learn from others and myself, to see what there is to see. It is nice to have a space to go to for my ideas to flow into and change.

OK, thanks for this. A holistic practice and development, then.
The conceptual is always more difficult to understand far less explain. However, what concepts are most important to you, other than the thread topic? — Amity

Of course!

I'm going to spend some time with this one before I reply.

I read on and note: 'Consumption'. Best use of resources? Environmental concerns.
'Cooperation'. Rather than competition?
So, political concerns? — Amity

We consume every day. Food (fuel), stimulation (movement), information (learning). My observation is that over a period of time, these intakes change us. In some ways, these changes are subtle and others are more obvious. This is one aspect of life that we have some measure of control over. We can actively choose what we take in. I work to be mindful of my intake while maintaining a balance so that I don't end up with decision paralysis. There are plenty of things that could influence the choices that I make. I think to dive into those would be opening up a whole conversation, albeit a fun one! My choices do tend to be motivated by cooperation over competition.

'Establishing reference points' - what are they and how can they be established? How are they useful?
'Mental exercises and brain tricks' - have you any specific examples? — Amity

Reference points to me, are sometimes little nuggets of wisdom that we have earned along the way. A reference point can be a tough lesson learned or a significant realization that comes with experience. It could be a mistake that has shaken us to our core.

Knowledge can fail us in vital moments, so it has to be something that we can see clearly while in a storm. Something with strong roots. This can be particularly useful in moments when emotions run high, difficult circumstances emerge and the more primitive parts of us threaten to take over the full use of our facilities. These have also aided me in times when I become lost in my mind space and need to find my way back to reality.

That is why this forum can be illuminating in different ways. — Amity

This is what I am seeing in the little glimpse I've gotten myself. This forum seems like a real treasure. I'm glad to be on board.

See my bolds: There is an almost religious element here. A certain philosophy or faith?
What kind of transition are you talking about? What have you 'borrowed'? From where and how would it be returned?

It seems like this is your prime motivation: to develop and grow so that you can live on in some other life.
Perhaps I missed this, but did you mention what faith you follow? — Amity

Not quite.

When I say transition, I speak to form changing from one thing into another. We collectively debate what this will look like, if anything, post death. I do have my own personal reasons for why I have the sense that the essence of me will continue on in other lifetimes, as I have the sense that it has done so already. This sense however, is not religiously motivated. If anything, I am careful not to attach to belief systems.

I do not have attachments to any faith based religious structures. I did, in my youth. Those have been broken down. They are no longer useful to me.

I do not consider anything that I utilize to be mine, if I am capable of losing it. In death, I will lose my intellect, my possessions, my hands and feet. If I can lose them, then were they ever truly mine to begin with?

In this acceptance, I can shed attachments to that which I have no control over. So in a way yes, I do prepare for death. But that is not the end of it. I wish to be at peace with myself, when I take my last breath. Who knows what comes after? If my soul does continue on, it will be stronger for whatever comes along because I wasn't distracted by things that are fleeting and temporary.

I do not feel certain that I can identify my prime motivation at this time. This is something I will need to spend time with.

I'll grant you that one of the most fascinating things about people are the intricate pathways they take to getting in their own way. — Tom Storm

Yes, this is fascinating. I've watched myself do it many times.

I don't mean in the way of intellect. — Universal Student

Though I am not excluding this either. A intellectual developmental arrest could contribute to the conditions for this kind of mentality. As could many other factors.

Is there hierarchical thinking predicated in this construction? You've stated that you privileged self-awareness/journeys of personal transformation, so it would follow that someone who does not is developmentally challenged, right? What if they are not? What if they simply do not share your perspective. Does this suggest a lesser being?

I'll grant you that one of the most fascinating things about people are the intricate pathways they take to getting in their own way. — Tom Storm

Certainly not!

When I speak of a developmental barrier, I don't mean in the way of intellect.

I think that there are different types of development and that in each unique unraveling of experiences, we have a different view and way that we learn. Albeit with enough similarities that humans can communicate and have conversations and form societies.

I don't think that it has anything to do with superior or in-superior, lesser or greater. I think it just is. I think there is a certain amount of acceptance that one can practice when it comes to seeing where someone is at. And being able to do so is tremendously helpful.

I suppose at this point it would be useful to focus also on what a barrier means which is something that I am presently looking at a little more deeply.

Sometimes they are necessary, keeping a natural pace until there is a readiness to move forward in some way.

Other times, they are to keep something in, or out.

To clarify, when I use the word arrogant for example, I do not mean it as an insult. I do not see it as good or bad, I just see it for what it is. I am pointing to the description itself as being accurate to describe something for the sake of making clear connections in conversation.

This is one of several passages that say something similar - knowledge leads to artificiality - a false sense of self. I've had arguments about this before. Lao Tzu can't possibly mean that knowledge is bad, but I think he means just that. A release from knowledge and surrender to experience is what self-awareness is for me. — T Clark

Perhaps knowledge that is overly identified with, held fast to and solitary instead of used wisely as an aspect the whole navigation process through life is the danger?

An idolization of knowledge, if you will.

Knowledge can be passed along and shared with others like a torch and we can light the way through mutual learning but we can not bring our knowledge with us when we our bodies return to the earth.

Anything can be spoiled when used improperly.

We learn through our experiences and like reminds us (if I am understanding his perspective correctly), overly analyzing them instead of just allowing them to shape us can perhaps lead us away from being in harmony with the Tao.

:sparkle:

Take care and thank you, again :clap: — Amity

Likewise!

To develop, we need to have or be shown skills; to identify moods, their causes, the tools to manage any problems. Understanding ourselves and others, to relate better is vital for holistic wellbeingness. — Amity

Strongly agreed.

There could also be people who may be unable to do so. How would we know which is in operation? — Tom Storm

I don't know.

If arrogance is a kind of developmental barrier to the ability and therefore willingness, then are they really distinguishable?

In which case, perhaps I should rephrase as, "it is arrogant not to do so", and omit the "unwilling" bit.

↪Pantagruel
Could be. Just as mistakes are often the necessary path to success. — Tom Storm

When you lose, you win.

I think it's pretty important to explore and talk about the things you don't believe in, don't you? I get a lot from hearing what others believe and why. :wink: — Tom Storm

I do! I like to challenge my own ideas and concepts while seeing where others are coming from. I think that it is arrogant to be unwilling to do so.

I never said there was harm. But now you raise it, there are plenty of people I've known across the decades who have disappeared up their own rectums through a process J Krishnamurti describes as 'analysis paralysis'. Self-refection can become compulsive and end up in ceaseless inaction and solemn festering. There is also a lot of explicit and implicit status seeking bound up in the self-reflection movement as people jostle to prove their innate sensitivities and higher awareness to others and themselves. — Tom Storm

A grounding reply.

I don't think awareness has anything to do with knowing. For me t has to do with paying attention. — T Clark

Okay, that makes sense. It's the attention and focus on what is taking place.

The average age of forum members is 86. We call anyone under 60 a youngster. Anyone under 45 is a whippersnapper. — T Clark

Noted!

I usually don't see what we do here on the forum as competition. I have an idea I believe in or want to examine. I give my thoughts. I try to think them through before I do. Others respond.

Actually, maybe it is a competition, but it's between ideas, not people. Survival of the fittest. — T Clark

My thoughts exactly.

And then when it comes to the socially constructed aspect of selfhood, you would want to understand the implications of what you are taking on board. There are choices. But few ever realise this is the game. They just go for what’s on the shelf as the expected purchase. And if not that, they shop in the gluten free or organic aisle instead. — apokrisis

In other words, which beliefs have captured us?

:smile: — GLEN willows

:)

I'm here to speak for poetry. I don't get a lot of it, but when I do, it goes somewhere really different than non-fiction or fiction. It can lead to awareness of a whole different part of who I am.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean there's nothing to get. I feel the same way you do about poetry about jazz. I don't get it. It doesn't move me. On the other hand, I can see there's something there. Even if it doesn't work for me, I can see and hear value while not participating. Also, a lot of people whose judgement I respect are moved by it. — T Clark

Agreed.

Your way of existing may be different from mine. What feeds you, may not be adequate nutrition for me.

What moves one, may be lost on another.

None is greater or lesser than another.

It's about being reached, not the "what" of what reaches us.

Consciousness is the attunement of all senses to thinking processes.

By attuned I mean the processing of sensory input for the organisms interaction with environment. But it goes beyond this to include the area of pure thought/reason as elucidated by Kant who provided more than a satisfactory answer on the matter. — Deus

This is interesting.

I like the connection here of the two, the thinking processes and the senses.

Thank you for sharing.

↪Deus
I am presenting some questions and my sincere view of the OP. These terms are so broad and used so differently and ubiquitously that I am curious what s/he means. I have my own thoughts based on decades of reading/living, but when we ask questions here it is not always because we don't have an answer, it is to find out more from the other person.

This OP to me is far from clear. Also, I do think setting yourself a task of self-awareness is pointless. Self-awareness, like happiness, is not something you can aim for - it happens as a result of other things. Like paying attention while you live your life.

Analysis is paralysis
- J Krishnamurti New York 1974 — Tom Storm

I welcome your view!

I am sure that you will share and contribute whatever feels right for you to do so. I ask for nothing less, nothing more.

I do not have a definitive answer to the questions that I have asked here.

What if we re-framed this instead as someone suspecting that they are experiencing greater degrees of awareness and consciousness and as a result, they experience this mental initiation into the new and unfamiliar territory. Does this change anything for you?

So instead of aiming for something that they are trying to achieve, it is already happening to them and they are simply attempting to intellectually understand what is unfolding and what place such an experience has in the physical world where they share in life with billions of other humans.

Also, what harm can come of asking these kinds of questions? If a conversation doesn't attract us, we can easily access our freedom to move on to another which speaks to us more deeply.

I don't understand what you mean by the question. — Tom Storm

It think it is wonderful that you don't understand the question. That implies that understanding may be within reach and that there is something to potentially explore.

Sure, people bark on about consciousness and awareness all the time (especially in California), but what are you specifically referring to and what are you hoping to find? — Tom Storm

My meaning of the question speaks for itself. It doesn't need a complete answer. The question itself and all which arises with it, is enough. If I have an expectation, then I have already limited myself.

An inner stirring desired to express itself and to be shared amongst other minds, particularly those of which seemingly like myself, willingly choose to put their mental energy towards the study of truth and principles of being.

I chose to initiate broad as to leave the door wide open to invitation of as many perspectives as possible. And as naturally occurs without effort, we have each brought relatable and narrow focus to the content here, based on own unique experiences. How can we have greater room to shape the conversation if it already has a defined form?

Fascinating that these inquiries would coagulate most densely in a single geographical region.

Personally I don't think these sorts of questions matter very much. — Tom Storm

If you don't think that these sorts of questions matter very much, why are you allowing this discussion to take up space within your mind?

There is an assumption common to meditative practice and cognitive science that one can make a distinction between a pre-reflective and a reflective form of awareness , and a distinction between attention and what what one attends to. But if reflecting on one’s consciousness is distorting, then so is the ‘pre-reflective’ experience of awareness. Any form of consciousness or awareness is an awareness of something other than itself. There is no self to be aware of except a self that arrives to us from the world every moment as a changed self. To turn back to oneself, to turn ‘inward’ in order to examine the being of consciousness is a being exposed to an outside. Studying consciousness is studying g self-transformation, and this means participating in the transformation rather than standing outside of it. — Joshs

What I first take from this is that if someone is to first become aware of their own thoughts and then to reflect on them and the result is distortion, then there is an indication that something is amiss and that perhaps it is time to change. To avoid this is to perhaps avoid the source of the internal conflict which is being reflected in those mental thought patterns?

I'd like to spend some more time with these points as well.

I agree that thought can be labyrinthian; a complex structure of pathways which can be a confusing maze and amazing.
It is always present and will not be stopped.
The effort to do so, in my mind, would be counter-productive.
It is more about training the mind. And that takes thought. And awareness. And focus. — Amity

I agree. This is where I am at presently and is in part, a motivation for my original inquiry.

This is a different way of thinking about awareness than mine, but it's interesting and well thought out. It made me go back and look closer at how I experience my own awareness — T Clark

This stands out to me. Particularly the last bit about how you experience your own awareness.

Is awareness in whatever degree of clarity you happen to experience it really yours or are you experiencing awareness and privy to something outside of yourself, within yourself?

Is it ours? Shared? Collective? Connected? Separate? Unique? Dependent? Independent?

Does this instinctively easy sense of ownership and perhaps even division distract us from anything?

Is your first thought aware of itself? Or is your second thought a reflection on your first thought (as mine is).

My feeling is that thought distracts awareness away from the present into the labyrinth of thought. Thus the suggestion is that thought and effort in this matter are counterproductive, as if one would strain to relax. the only 'how' to relaxation is to strain, and then stop straining. Think very hard about stopping thinking, and then stop. — unenlightened

My appreciation of this reply stems from its simplicity and reminder to relax into this process. I take from this to allow the process itself to carry me and I view myself as being along for the ride.

Brings to mind "effortless effort."

If you are interested in cultivating an awareness of awareness then Idealism is a logical avenue.

Interesting!

I've spent the majority of my almost 29 years operating primarily from my mind, with very little flow going to my body or spirit. I am coming to understand now that we need balance and that by hiding away in my labyrinth of thoughts, I have not fully allowed myself previously to face and accept reality without some degree of distortion of truth.

It is because of this actually, that a healthy bit of skepticism in my observation of the thinking mind has found it's way into my field of view. I've been inspired to seek clarity, both with and without myself as a subject in the matter.

Perhaps due to over correction at this point in my journey, I am not quite certain in this moment how to approach the idea that our reality itself is dependent upon our thoughts. It seems to me that this is giving oneself a tremendous amount of power, influence and special regards over that which we just happen to be existing around, in and within.

It makes sense to me however, to insert perception into this as in to say that our perception of reality is dependent upon the state and quality of mind. If my mind is sound and I balanced, then I might see the truth of reality more clearly then if I were peering through...outdated lenses which need an updated prescription.
— Pantagruel

Simultaneously an exploration of the relationship between acting and conceptual knowledge, and where the thought of a concept becomes the concept of thought, becomes thought. — Pantagruel

This has signaled to me a deeper investigation of the nature of thoughts and concepts. Thank you for your reply I am excited to explore what is arising.

awareness of awareness — Pantagruel

Would you expand on your view of this?

How would one know that she is aware of being aware? And could she be aware without awareness of such?

Perhaps we need to pay more or less attention; observe what is happening right now.
As you say, what is your 'base-line'?
Where are you at in your life? Think about your values regarding care of body, mind and spirit?
What are your usual habits or patterns of thought, emotions and behaviour?
Are they helping or harming you or others? — Amity

Excellent questions to point me toward self inquiry.

Turn to philosophy? — Amity

Definitely. It's done far more for my mental and spiritual development than religion or escapism ever did.

It would be good if you could expand on the sources you found helpful; what 'path' have they walked? — Amity

There are a couple of individuals in my personal life who I've walked with that have taught me a great deal in showing me some basic building blocks.

When I say "path", I suppose I point to their navigation which has born similarities to my own that in their well earned lessons further along than me, I have been able to see how they handle circumstances to which those corresponding tools are in alignment with my own needs and nature. We have shaped one another.

Our needs differ and what works for you, may not work for me. But it also might just be adaptable and useful to someone else.

These souls in my personal life do have strong philosophical and spiritual roots.

I could speak of course for any philosopher as well who has shared their wisdom with us. I have only scraped the surface when it comes to philosophical teachings. I am looking at the wisdom that Socrates has left behind at this time.

Also, what tools and how have you adapted them to suit your needs? — Amity

The tools themselves vary from being as physical as training myself to breathe more consciously to being as conceptual that I wouldn't know where to begin with explaining them.

Meditation both in sittings and in that of viewing life as such in practice, fasting and various approaches to our relationship with food, physical movements, mindfulness of various forms of consumption, reading, journalism and sharing ideas, learning the usefulness of establishing reference points, mental exercises and learning tricks of the brain are some examples of what comes to mind without effort in this moment.

Perhaps, borrowing from a Stoic's perspective? — Amity

I actually did find the stoic perspective to be quite helpful for me during a difficult period. Not to say that I've ceased integrating and learning from those unique teachings. There was just a time when they had a greater effect on my daily life.

Thanks for starting this engaging discussion :sparkle: — Amity

Thank you for engaging!

It has been a pleasure to read your reply. Somehow, for reasons which are beyond me in this moment, doing so has brought warmth into my chest. Perhaps there is something kindred in your path which my soul identifies with. I am fully uncertain. And that is perfectly okay.

My first series of thoughts: Why do you ask? Why would we want to develop? How do we know what, if anything, is wrong with our current status? — Amity

I suppose the inquiry comes with knowing that by asking questions, we are exploring. It is knowing that I can be wrong, which is a lesson that I am grateful to have learned. I am capable of operating from a place which could be different and better and I could be totally unaware of that fact should I sit in a stagnate soup of comfort without asking myself why? Why do I feel, think and behave as I do.

This feels natural to me. To explore, to question, to wonder. I don't even have to find the answers. I want it to be deeply felt in that moment when my transition from this form comes and I return all which I have borrowed in this lifetime, that I spent at least some of my moments seeking valuable insight and understanding of the nature of reality and existence and my own place in that. That I didn't allow my days to be whittled down by sitting idle without a sense of direction.

There is a deep place within me from which the question emerges. A powerful yearning, like the beating of my heart as I feel the blood in my body flow to energize and bring vital movement to each of my organs which operate this vehicle.

Perhaps we know that something needs to change when we begin to watch ourselves act and behave in ways which stir either internal conflict and/ or bring any measure of harm to those around us. I think that it is in those moments which compassion compels us towards learning. I know it does for me.

If I am capable of reason, I'd like to use it. The alternative feels like being trapped in formative years of primitive patterns which fuel my animal roots. I can see clearly that while I share fundamental similarities with wild animals, that humans are evolved different. My undeniable awareness of that urges me into a sense of responsibility.