• _db
    3.6k
    Here I wish to discuss whether or not the value, or "worthiness", of a life can be determined only by the one living it, or if there are independent reasons to believe a life is of some worth.

    Say I personally tell a person in a wheelchair that their life is not worth living. They'd probably tell me to fuck off.

    What I find strange, however, is how a pessimist (such as myself, perhaps) can say that all, or at least the vast majority, of lives are not worth living and not really be seen as a personal attack or a breach of authority. It's as if as soon as the denouncement is applied to everyone equally, and includes the life of the denouncer, that it no longer is a "personal" attack.

    But isn't it still? I do, as a matter of fact, believe that basically all lives are not worth living, out of their general mediocrity, the threat of extreme trauma, and some other reasons. But say I make a list of every single person on the planet and show how much their lives suck on a personal level. It's just as accurate, but it's also more precise and thus more personal.

    Now, it could of course be said that the pessimistic analysis is born from compassion and empathy towards other people. But the same could be said about me telling a person in a wheelchair that their life is not worth living. I might sincerely believe that not only the person in the wheelchair, but every life, is not worth living - but it seems wrong for me to tell the person in the wheelchair that while it doesn't seem wrong to generalize and apply this same reasoning to people in general.

    This is wholly inconsistent. If I say that all lives are not worth living, then it stands that the particular life of the person in the wheelchair is not worth living. Yet it seems, to me at least, that telling the person in the wheelchair personally is a kind of breach of authority: I don't have the authority to tell someone whether or not their life is worth living. Telling someone that to their face is insulting and damaging in a way generalizing through a philosophical analysis of the human condition is not. Reading Schopenhauer, for example, is enjoyable and illuminating (in my opinion) - but if Schopenhauer straight up told me to my face that my life was shit and not worth living, I'd probably want to punch him in the face. Why am I not insulted, then, when I read his work?

    Perhaps, as I mentioned before, the issue is mitigated when it's seen that people like Schopenhauer see humanity as a "brotherhood of suffering" - it's not just me, but everyone who is suffering. But this doesn't seem, to me, to fully get rid of the "schizophrenic" ascription of value. Indeed, if I had a friend who had a comparatively-worse life than anyone else I knew and who was contemplating suicide, I would have a hard time telling him that he really ought to kill himself. That doesn't seem like my call, I don't have the authority to tell him to kill himself (and neither do I have the authority to tell him to keep living...)

    But if this is the case, then what truth do broad, general value-laden observations have?

    The point being made is that any general abstract account intrinsically applies to all particular accounts as well. While it seems morally innocuous to say the general account, it seems wrong to say the particular account, EVEN THOUGH the particular account is guaranteed by the general account.

    It's a slippery slope.

    Edit: to add on, then, it seems to me that evaluations of the human condition, pessimistic ones in particular, seem to use some sort of fictional "archetype" as a subject of predication. Maybe that's why I'm not insulted when I read Schopenhauer - he's utilizing a sort of "universal" human Form or something to abstract away personal identities and focus on the shared characteristics between different human beings. Schopenhauer isn't addressing just me - he's addressing everyone as a collective whole, pointing out what we all experience. Perhaps the real thing that prevents me from being insulted, then, is that this requires some sense of humility and equality (even though Schopenhauer was fairly misanthropic...). The attitude is not of malevolence but of sad, melancholic sympathy.

    I'm actually having a hard time pinning down what makes these two cases different, though. How should we interpret these value-laden assessments of the human condition? Do they have truth aptness? And what do they actually mean, anyway? That the speaker personally would/wouldn't want to live a life (i.e. "life is not worth living" = "I would personally not want to live anyone's life", or "your life is not worth living" = "I would personally not want to live your life.")? Or something else?

    I'm also sort of fiddling around with the idea that maybe this is a reason why general accounts of the human condition ought to be rejected. It reminds me of Nietzschean perspectivism in some way, and also of Nietzsche's focus on the individual and that an Overman holds a rational and objective picture of his own life, but not necessarily of anyone else's.

    Notice how this is an issue for any value-laden observation of the human condition: that the human condition is good or bad. This doesn't seem to apply to "factual" accounts of the human condition - for example, that we age, die, get diseases, suffer, rejoice, despair, laugh and cry. The value-laden account of the factual-account comes afterwards.

    Obviously I'm a dick if I tell someone their life is not worth living to their face, but apparently if I write it in a book and direct it at everyone, it's not insulting? It's a strange psychological inconsistency, from what I can tell.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    why is it insulting to tell someone their life is not worth living to their face, but not insulting to say everyone's lives are not worth living?darthbarracuda

    Perhaps the answer is more psychological than philosophical. People don't like to be singled out for abuse. That's how they'd take it if told in the face that their lives weren't worth living. However, a general statement dilutes the impact of the point being made. How and why I'm not sure. Perhaps there's safety in numbers. Perhaps there's an absence of the implication of a personal defect in a general statement. Come to think of it, it's quite a selfish and mean thought to be comforted by the equal or greater misery of others who form the ''brotherhood of suffering''.

    Also it seems to me that philosophy doesn't have answer, at least an objective and universal one, to the question ''what is the meaning of life?'' The sorrow of this realization is compounded by the undeniable suffering that pervades all categories of experience. Therefore an accusation that all life is not worth living seems, prima facie, reasonable.

    However, this doesn't result in mass suicide or chaos. It should, rationally thinking so. The explanation for this paradoxical living lies in itself - there is no objective meaning to life. Although this is a big blow to heart and mind it also opens up the possibility of finding a personal fulfilling, enjoyable subjective meaning to life. As an added bonus we also, despite the suffering that is real and unavoidable, find moments of happiness, no matter how fleeting how small, that make us feel our lives worth living.
  • _db
    3.6k
    Perhaps the answer is more psychological than philosophical.TheMadFool

    I suspect this may be the case.

    Perhaps there's an absence of the implication of a personal defect in a general statement.TheMadFool

    Yes, interesting point. It is quite strange that we normally would be insulted by an attack on our personal dignity (say, if someone proclaims I am an insect (metaphorically)), but are not insulted when someone attacks the human race as a whole (we're all insects).

    Say a super powerful race of aliens zooms into our atmosphere and proclaims that the human race is quite a sorry lot and that we should stop expanding our civilization. Although I normally would actually agree with that statement, I nevertheless would be quite insulted by such a statement. Like, who are you to tell me that my life is not worth living, that's my job!

    But if the super powerful race of aliens comes with a message that all sentient life, not just human life but the alien life as well, is such-and-such and what have you, the sting goes away. It's as if, if someone admits that their own life is generally not worth living, it's no longer a serious transgression. It's more like a confession.

    How an idea like this is presented seems to be important, too. If I present empirical, factual accounts of the human condition but leave out any substantial value-laden claims, I'm not really doing anything wrong. But this also is a bit too open-ended; the pessimistic conclusion from the data is not presented. But if the conclusion is presented too forcibly, it suddenly becomes way too aggressive. It's as if sometimes philosophical accounts like this have to be presented in a certain way. There's an art to finding the right balance between honesty and respect.

    Perhaps a defining feature would be a passive evaluative claim. If I say "human existence is such-and-such", I am saying that I believe that human existence qualifies for whatever predicate I use. But there seems to be an element of passivity that prevents me from enforcing this evaluation. From my perspective I obviously believe I am correct in my evaluation, but I can't treat it as a factual claim, even if it is. For some reason there seems to be an ethical requirement that evaluative claims like this are held on a person-by-person basis, even if they objectively aren't subjective.

    Although this is a big blow to heart and mind it also opens up the possibility of finding a personal fulfilling, enjoyable subjective meaning to life. As an added bonus we also, despite the suffering that is real and unavoidable, find moments of happiness, no matter how fleeting how small, that make us feel our lives worth living.TheMadFool

    I agree, a certain aesthetic surrounding the paradoxical nature of human existence can be cultivated to make a pessimistic life meaningful. Perhaps there is no logical connection between the value of life and the factual descriptions of it. Without trying to be cliche, it would seem to be that life is what life is, but the interpretation of this, the essence of life, is up to the individual to decide.

    This also seems to be a decent argument for antinatalism - if I'm not morally allowed to tell people whether or not their lives are personally worth living, then surely nobody is allowed to force someone to live a life they may or may not feel is personally worth living. Of course, this is kind of a mask for the more fundamental issue, the disvalue of suffering, the same disvalue that I just said potentially isn't objectively shown to be of disvalue. Confusing.
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    ...value-laden assessments of the human condition? Do they have truth aptness?darthbarracuda
    I'm reading Joseph Raz, who writes a lot about valuation, and so forth, I don't know if you're acquainted with him.

    I think you may be confusing two things: the valuation of humans, and the valuation of how humans live.

    There is then the question of who has the right to do the valuation, in both cases. If you assert that you yourself have the right, then to what others do you grant similar rights, either by rational argument from whatever your premisses are, or out of sympathy?

    It may also be that a related difference is the Aristotle-to-Kant distinction between theoretical and practical reason. One might theorise for instance that human life as it's lived largely lacks value, but also have a practical view - which then forms a more primary ethic - that every human life deserves as much respect as you would wish your human life to be accorded.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    This also seems to be a decent argument for antinatalism - if I'm not morally allowed to tell people whether or not their lives are personally worth living, then surely nobody is allowed to force someone to live a life they may or may not feel is personally worth living. Of course, this is kind of a mask for the more fundamental issue, the disvalue of suffering, the same disvalue that I just said potentially isn't objectively shown to be of disvalue. Confusing.darthbarracuda

    What I'd focus on is the unknowable nature of the problem. We don't know how a person will evaluate his own life. Will he think it enjoyable and flourish or will he think it painful and suffer?

    Another relevant point is that generally?? a rational?? assessment reveals that suffering exceeds happiness in our world.

    The combination of the above two facts?? result in pessimism and anti-natalism.

    However, going back to the first problem, the problem of the unknown nature of a person's evaluation of his own life, we really aren't justified in opting for the negative i.e. we don't have good reasons to think someone will take life as painful and suffering is unbearable. Why? Because observational evidence clearly shows that people, in general, value life and they make every effort to live and enjoy.

    Imagine a mundane situation (to clarify my point concerning anti-natalism). You're having a party and thinking of people to invite for the occasion. You have no problem drawing up a list of friends to invite except in the case of Mr. X. He's an introvert, shy and socially inept. How would you decide with regard to Mr. X?

    One option would be not to invite him at all. You think it'd just be boring and difficult for X to be at the party.

    The other option is you invite X just in case he might have fun AND if he doesn't like it he can leave as and when he chooses.

    Which of the two seems reasonable? I think the latter option (invite) is the better because X gets the benefit of the doubt. Plus he can always leave if he doesn't like it.
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