• Agustino
    11.2k
    Neither does being a virgin.m-theory
    Well it does have to do with being sexually special one towards another - that's by definition.
  • m-theory
    1.1k
    No it doesn't.
    The definition of a virgin is a person that has not had sex before.
    Not a person who it is more special to have sex with.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    No it doesn't.
    The definition of a virgin is a person that has not had sex before.
    Not a person who it is more special to have sex with.
    m-theory
    By definition a virgin (applied to someone who intends to get married) is someone who has saved sex for marriage
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Now the fact that someone has had sex before isn't such a big deal in itself. It's more about how they've had sex. For example, it's more important that they have avoided casual sex, but if they had sex in long-term relationships before marriage, not such a big deal. Still a problem - but not as big. Why? Because in a long-term relationship, they maybe have thought they'd get married to that person, and well, it didn't work out. It's not like they intended to do something immoral. But on the other hand, someone who engages in promiscuous sex intends something immoral - aims for the wrong thing. That's far worse.
  • m-theory
    1.1k

    Being married does not automatically make sex more special either.

    Also people that are not saving themselves for sex can be virgins too.

    Being a virgin does not automatically make sex special.
    In fact quite the opposite is often true, people have idealistic views about sex as virgins and are often disappointed by there first experience with it.

    I think what you are trying to communicate is the idea that when you are deeply in love with a person the sex is special.
    I would not argue with that.
    But you don't have to be married or a virgin to fall deeply in love with someone and experience something special with them.
  • m-theory
    1.1k
    Far worse for who?

    What about people that don't want long term relationships but still want to have sex?

    Provided they are consenting adults that does not hurt anybody.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Being married does not automatically make sex more special either.m-theory
    No, it doesn't necessarily make it more special.

    Also people that are not saving themselves for sex can be virgins too.m-theory
    Ehmmm did I ever say they can't?

    Being a virgin does not automatically make sex special.m-theory
    No, not automatically. It's not a sufficient condition for that.

    In fact quite the opposite is often true, people have idealistic views about sex as virgins and are often disappointed by there first experience with it.m-theory
    Well maybe it wasn't special for you because you wasted it. But for me, when I had sex with my first girlfriend, it was certainly a very special moment. I've never wasted sex - maybe I made mistakes with regards to it, but I've never wasted it.

    I think what you are trying to communicate is the idea that when you are deeply in love with a person the sex is special.m-theory
    Being deeply in love is not sufficient in and of itself.

    What about people that don't want long term relationships but still want to have sex?m-theory
    They're a dangerous element for the rest of society that has to be controlled - simple.
  • m-theory
    1.1k
    Well maybe it wasn't special for you because you wasted it. But for me, when I had sex with my first girlfriend, it was certainly a very special moment.Agustino

    Well for a lot of people it is not nearly as special as thought it was going to be.
    They're a dangerous element for the rest of society that has to be controlled - simple.Agustino

    Utter nonsense.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Well for a lot of people it is not nearly as special as thought it was going to be.m-theory
    Yes, for materialist hedonists who believe that sex is God, yes it's not that special, because they never see the spiritual dimension of it. That's obvious.
  • m-theory
    1.1k
    You are so very melodramatic.
    You don't have to worship sex to have your first experience be an awkward disappointment.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    You are so very melodramatic.
    You don't have to worship sex to have your first experience be an awkward disappointment.
    m-theory
    No you must simply take heed of what your culture is telling you "have sex have sex have sex" without understanding the spiritual dimension that's always involved in sex, and you're gonna end up with a not so great experience. Quite simple. Has nothing to do with being a virgin - in other words, your experience isn't lacking because you're a virgin, it's lacking because you're an idiot.
  • m-theory
    1.1k

    That is silly.
    Culture is not what compels people to have sex, biology does.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Culture is not what informs people to have sex, biology does.m-theory
    That's what your culture has been telling you ;)
  • m-theory
    1.1k

    No, that is what my body tells me.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    No, that is what my body tells me.m-theory
    No it's really what you THINK you're body has been telling you. I used to think the same when I was a teenager. I was wrong. Our culture has deceived us, to the point we're not even able to see its effects anymore.
  • Jamal
    9.1k
    What is the spiritual dimension of sex, and do you think one can explore this dimension, or do justice to it, in a one-night stand?
  • m-theory
    1.1k

    That is just what your ideology is telling you.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    What is the spiritual dimension of sex, and do you think one explore this dimension, or do justice to it, in a one-night stand?jamalrob
    Well they could explore the negative aspects of it, that's for sure >:O

    As for what the spiritual dimension is, it's the bond (or in the case of one-night stand, the broken bond) that is created with the other.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    That is just what your ideology is telling you.m-theory
    Yeah, pity that I arrived at this "ideology" independently through my own thinking - an ideology which is opposed by my Western culture, and which I pretty much could not have found propounded, and even if I did, I could not have found it advantageous to believe. So either I'm an idiot, or I see certain advantages in holding it that you don't. I think the latter.
  • Jamal
    9.1k
    So you think it's impossible to form a temporary bond, one that lasts only for one night? Or do you think temporary bonds are insignificant or pointless (or something else bad)?

    And what negative aspects are you referring to? And does this apply to all one-night stands or just some or most of them?
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    You on the other hand m-theory, you sit there with what everyone else is thinking. That in itself should have you worried - that everyone else is thinking so.
  • m-theory
    1.1k
    Yeah, pity that I arrived at this "ideology" independently through my own thinkingAgustino

    Except it is a common theme in western culture.

    an ideology which is opposed by my Western cultureAgustino

    Your views are actually fairly common in western culture in my experience, especially among the religious.
  • Michael
    14k
    As for what the spiritual dimension is, it's the bond (or in the case of one-night stand, the broken bond) that is created with the other.Agustino

    Is this bond just some sort of psychological thing? Or by "spiritual" do you mean it in the mystical sense (as non-physical and non-psychological)?
  • Benkei
    7.1k
    A natural desire. You have a natural desire for food. In what sense is that seeking to fulfill that a fallacy?Agustino

    It follows from the context of your discussion. First you said:

    Right it would be better that your partner gets fucked by hundreds of people before you get married to him/her - that sounds nice! Sure! >:OAgustino
    (emphasis mine)

    Then you said:

    Not at all. It's a natural desire of the human being, which has nothing to do with insecurity. The desire for specialness with your partner is a desire that is natural to the human being.Agustino

    You seem to claim that desire for specialness is better to have because it's natural. You moved from a statement of fact (desire to be special to your partner is natural) to a value judgment (therefore its better not to have a partner fucked by hundreds of people). That's the fallacy you are making.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    So you think it's impossible to form a temporary bond, one that lasts only for one night?jamalrob
    No it is possible, but as you say it is temporary, and hence it is a "broken bond" - as in always already broken.

    Or do you think temporary bonds are insignificant or pointless (or something else bad)?jamalrob
    Well they are insignificant and pointless on the one hand (no big thing gained, why waste all the effort merely for physical pleasure - as Epicurus would put it - avoid sex, bigger source of problems than of pleasures), and on the other, they destroy the very capacity for forming permanent bonds, and thus take away a greater good.

    And what negative aspects are you referring to? And does this apply to all one-night stands or just some or most of them?jamalrob
    All non-committed relationships.

    Your views are actually fairly common in western culture in my experience, especially among the religious.m-theory
    Not true. I don't view sex between people who don't get married as immoral so long as they are life-long devoted to each other, faithful and live monogamous lives together (or at minimum intend to do so). The religious do view that as problematic.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    You seem to claim that desire for specialness is better to have because it's natural.Benkei
    Nope. I merely identify that it exists, naturally and by itself - as opposed to artifically. I don't discuss whether it's good to have it or not. But if it exists, its in the nature of desire to seek its fulfilment, so if you do things which render it impossible to fulfil, then yes, you have hurt yourself, because that desire was part of you, and you have denied it.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Is this bond just some sort of psychological thing? Or by "spiritual" do you mean it in the mystical sense (as non-physical and non-psychological)?Michael
    It is psychological and mystical. Or rather it has both dimensions.
  • Michael
    14k
    It is psychological and mystical.Agustino

    The "mystical" part is problematic. Unless the rest of us believe in such a thing then all your arguments are going to fall flat. It would be like arguing with an atheist that we shouldn't do something because God forbids it; given that they reject your premise the argument won't convince them how to behave.

    So if your arguments against casual sex depend on there being some spiritual connection between people then you first have to argue in favour of there being this spiritual connection, else you're never going to convince me that casual sex is wrong (at least not with this line of reasoning).
  • m-theory
    1.1k
    Not true. I don't view sex between people who don't get married as immoral so long as they are life-long devoted to each other, faithful and live monogamous lives together. The religious do view that as problematic.Agustino
    I am not sure how common this view is among the religious, I have not made a habit of asking about this specifically.

    But this may be the only difference between your views and that of those that claim promiscuity is immoral.

    Certainly it is not an uncommon view in the US that monogamy should be preferable to promiscuity.
    Monogamy is celebrated in modern mediums within the US as much if not more than promiscuity.

    I definitely don't agree that you get to claim you are surrounded by an unsympathetic culture.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    The "mystical" part is problematic. Unless the rest of us believe in such a thing then all your arguments are going to fall flat. It would be like arguing with an atheist that we shouldn't do something because God forbids it; given that they reject your premise the argument won't convince them how to behave.Michael
    Yes but I can discuss with you in terms of the psychological - as the mystical is intimately related with the psychological anyway - it's a step beyond it, that's all there is to it.
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